Facing the inevitable end of life (whenever that is) can unearth a well of emotions, from fear to a profound appreciation for the time we have. It's a journey Zaw recently traversed after personal losses, and in this heart-to-heart episode, we open the door to a conversation many shy away from—mindfulness of death. We venture into how this contemplation is not merely about accepting our mortality but about embracing the fullness of life with intention and kindness. We trace its roots in Theravada Buddhism and reveal how this practice can enrich our lives, urging us toward a path of wholesomeness and purpose.
As we navigate through the realms of existential therapy, we tackle the very impermanence that shapes our existence. This episode is a sanctuary for those yearning to find meaning amidst life's fleeting moments, offering strategies to align with personal values and employ grounding techniques for deeper self-awareness. The practice of the 32 parts of the body meditation is just one transformative tool we discuss, guiding us to shift our perspective and cherish the living spirit within and around us. Tune in for an exploration that promises to challenge your views on death and inspire a renewed zest for the life you lead.
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Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
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The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational, and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
Facing the inevitable end of life (whenever that is) can unearth a well of emotions, from fear to a profound appreciation for the time we have. It's a journey Zaw recently traversed after personal losses, and in this heart-to-heart episode, we open the door to a conversation many shy away from—mindfulness of death. We venture into how this contemplation is not merely about accepting our mortality but about embracing the fullness of life with intention and kindness. We trace its roots in Theravada Buddhism and reveal how this practice can enrich our lives, urging us toward a path of wholesomeness and purpose.
As we navigate through the realms of existential therapy, we tackle the very impermanence that shapes our existence. This episode is a sanctuary for those yearning to find meaning amidst life's fleeting moments, offering strategies to align with personal values and employ grounding techniques for deeper self-awareness. The practice of the 32 parts of the body meditation is just one transformative tool we discuss, guiding us to shift our perspective and cherish the living spirit within and around us. Tune in for an exploration that promises to challenge your views on death and inspire a renewed zest for the life you lead.
Visit our website!
Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
New Episodes are released every Monday.
Please send your questions to luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational, and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode of A Therapist, a Buddhist in you, brought to you by the Recovery Collective and the Natless Mere. This is where we explore the depths of human experience through the lens of ballistic well-being. We are your host, luke Gonzal, and today we bring you the topic that might be considered unconventional but holds profound wisdom the mindfulness of death. In a world bustling with the noise of daily life, contemplating our mortality often takes a backseat. However, as we unravel the layers of this often overlooked aspect, we discover that mindfulness of death isn't a morbid exploration, but a tool that can enrich our lives in unexpected ways.
Speaker 1:Why is today's episode an important lesson? The mindfulness of death isn't about dwelling on fear. It's an invitation to embrace the fullness of life. In this episode, we'll explore how this ancient practice, viewed through the lenses of both therapy and Theravada Buddhism, can offer a profound insight into the fragility of life and guide us towards living with intention and purpose. So, before we dive in, remember to hit that like button, subscribe and share this podcast with others who might find value in these conversations. Our community is growing and your support helps us continue to bring you meaningful content. Now let's unravel the mysteries of mindfulness of death together, hey Zong.
Speaker 2:Hey Luke, How's it going?
Speaker 1:Doing good. Doing good and second episode of the new year of 2024. And this is a topic that you approached us with, so I'd love to kind of hear what spurred this. Why did you feel this would be a good topic for us this evening? The mindfulness of death.
Speaker 2:Yeah, quite a heavy topic. I'm glad Thanks for agreeing to do it, but I do pay attention to a lot of things that are happening in my life to bring a topic and this has been coming up, especially if you are around recovery community. They say the longer you stay sober, the more general you end up going to. So that topic of death has been coming up. I lost a friend back in Burma on Christmas day of 2022. So it was his anniversary, and then I found out about another friend's death one day after Christmas of 2023.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's why I came up with this topic, but I think it will be therapeutic and also, but the title itself, it's kind of shocking, you know. So I think it requires some disclaimer in terms of, like that this is not, you know, because it can probably have some negative connotation, mindfulness of death. But I think more gentle way will be mindfulness of impermanence or mindfulness of the uncertainty of life, something like that. But because if it's like in a technical sense, to practice mindfulness of death, it does require training, experience, guidance from a monk or somebody who is well qualified for that. So, but I just wanted to mention that we'll be approaching it from a layman point of view, to appreciate life. So that's my idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Certainly, the time of year and a season yes, we've gotten through a lot of this. You know major American holidays it's often a good time and we've had two recent episodes with looking at the past and the previous week, the present and the future and but yeah, I mean really looking at the fragility of life can really bring viable insights. You know it's potentially leading to more looking or highlighting the importance of intention and purpose and things like that. So, yeah, we'll see where we go with this topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to provide a little bit of background, the traditional. In a traditional sense this comes from in a Tidavata meditation practice. There are 40 meditation objects and one of them is death. And also, traditionally, there are four protective meditations. One of them is mindfulness of death. The other ones are mindfulness of the qualities of the Buddha, mindfulness of loving, kindness and mindfulness of the 32 parts of the body or the repulsive nature of the body. So these are supposed to keep us protected. So that's the tradition. Mindfulness of death is actually can create protection around us. According to the tradition.
Speaker 1:So I think you're explaining how it aligns with, would you say, some of the Buddhist spiritual teachings. Is contemplating death a core practice in Buddhism?
Speaker 2:It is part of the first foundation of mindfulness, which is the mindfulness of the body, and then there's a section about the 32 parts of the body and then the mindfulness of death is part of that too. I think it would be helpful to kind of unpack, because this will also help us understand what mindfulness actually means in a Buddhist sense, you know, because it's not like thinking about death all day. You know, oh yeah, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die. It's more about mindfulness as in bringing attention to the mind, about the fact that death is certainly gonna happen and that death is part of life, and also when it's gonna happen, why it's gonna happen and where it's gonna happen. It's uncertain, it can happen anytime. So those are the factors of bringing mindfulness in terms of to create urgency, in terms of focusing on the action, to do wholesome deeds and also avoid unwholesome deeds, to kind of motivate the practitioner. So that really is the purpose behind this practice.
Speaker 1:I never thought I could listen to you talk about death all day. Tell us more, keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean without getting. I mean I would like to start with, on a personal note, because I mean some of the people that I've lost, they do have children, you know, and so it gets me emotional, but emotional in a way of like gratitude and also appreciation that I just it just makes me live present and it makes me live in the present today, you know, because it can just go away, I can just go away or they can just go away at any point. So I think that really is the essence and the beauty of because, you know, we're, in a way, protected away from death, as if it will never happen, but not to sound negative, but like it definitely is going to happen, but it can have positive impact on how I look at today. You know that, yeah, I can, you know, die at any point, which even makes the time that I do have with my children a lot more precious, you know, today, yeah, I think you're right now sharing what our topic is mindfulness of death.
Speaker 1:You're being mindful of hearing about someone, whether it's in your immediate or your intermediate core of your life, and when. How do we not look at in some ways, if we're mindful man, this individual had children. I have children we begin to look at the fragility of our own life and I think, when I think of mindfulness of death in a therapeutic context now, you as a life and recovery coach, in me as a therapist, I think that's one thing that I try to help people do. If this is where they're at in their life, if there's a death in their life, then it's to me in session. It's how do I help them to be mindful of loss, of grief? You know, exploring death and one's own thoughts and feelings about mortality for themselves or people they know. And I think this can be advantageous just to be very mindful and aware of it.
Speaker 1:Because in some way and I say this almost every time, not so much for the other people I work with, but for me, as I'm being mindful of death and someone else's processing theirs I can't not think about one of my perspectives of death.
Speaker 1:It's sometimes I feel so surreal with it, yet it's the most real thing that there is. There are a few guarantees out there and death is a guarantee and being mindful and present with that for me whether it's me as a therapist helping someone else, or me being mindful of death in my life, whether it's my inevitable passing or people in my life that it feels so surreal when my human body is trying to make sense of it. And I think it's for me a spiritual thing when I'm experiencing a loss or grief. And I think it feels so surreal to me because my human body is trying to understand something that might be spiritual, you know, but yeah, my therapist's ad is helping others to be mindful of loss and grief is, I think, important. It's embracing the reality of our impermanence or other people's impermanence. It can lead to a greater appreciation for our life, for the people that have passed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, and another aspect is also to live more purposefully and also intentionally. That's another personal note. For me is that this individual who passed away on the day after Christmas I was at the meeting to find out about that but also it's the same meeting where I met him last time, where he told me that he's been struggling he's still not drinking, but struggling. So for me who would have thought that that was my last interaction with him so it really makes me appreciate or at least we never know so it makes the relationship and the interactions that we do have with people a lot more meaningful and intentional. What if this is the last interaction that I will have? We never know. So I'm going to make the best out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. There's a part of me that is trying to be mindful of your experience with the loss in your life and how I, as a friend, a co-host, a person that's on this life with you and I think of I'm sorry for your loss. I don't know if that's an American saying, but I think American culture in general sucks that grief and loss and the mindfulness of death and impermanence in general. But how does the Buddhist culture really embrace death and loss?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting and it's good that you're pointing that out, because in the Buddhist cosmology, or in our belief system, there's this thing called samsara, which is the opposite, or the cycle of suffering that we're in, which is not nirvana. So in that sense I mean it's cyclical, unending, which also means that we go through different lives. So in a way it's not really of a, it's like a passing from one life to the next. It's not like the end in our culture. So I think some people even say, to the extent of that, there hasn't been anybody, we've never been. We've always been a father, a sister. We have gone through endless, infinite lifetime of different lives. So in a way it is a loss, but also like moving on in our, in the Buddhist belief system, because there's a cyclical nature of life and death. It's not the end. What about Buddha? He's gone, he's never going back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the next Buddha will be the Buddha of love. Yeah, love, it's good.
Speaker 2:Maitreya.
Speaker 1:Maitreya, sorry, a little bit tangent there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think we can talk about that like the other aspect, because there are some facts, as I mentioned earlier, that we have to be mindful of when it comes to death, and specifically is that, you know, the certainty of death that is definitely going to happen, it's part of life. That's one fact. And the other fact is that the cause of death is uncertain. It can be anywhere, it can be for any reason and it can be anytime. That's the second fact. And then the third fact is that we have to leave everything behind possessions, loved one, relationship. When the death arrives, everything's left behind. So those are the four facts, but also a three facts.
Speaker 2:And then the fourth fact is actually the actual practice of living a life, you know, mindful or right living. Is that the only thing that we're going to bring with is our action, because in Buddhist philosophy, it's the chain of action and reaction that keeps us going. So, so it really emphasized on the need for the. You know, some people have said that. You know there are some people who have lived a really good life and they're okay dying today. You know, because they've taken wholesome actions for their life and they're very proud of it, you know. So it creates that urgency that, oh, have I done things that I'm supposed to do, you know? So it creates that urgency to aspire to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's four things that you should just shared with us can put them on top, two polar opposites. For some it can give them peace, calmness and acceptance, but maybe for some, if not a lot of our listeners or just people in general, they can give people a lot of anxiety. Right, those? I don't think anything you said in a general way, people would disagree with their statements that seem, you know, relatively for sure, factual. But what would you tell the people? As you, as a life coach, you help people with all forms of life events, death being one of them, what would you tell to the listener or client of yours that, especially this first three examples you gave that that give them existential anxiety or fear? How would you help them with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I don't really share this practice that much or at all in this culture. Only if it's appropriate, you know. But I think, as I mentioned in the beginning, the mindfulness of impermanence is a lot more prevalent and more approachable. That, okay, whatever you're feeling right now is gonna pass.
Speaker 1:You know, things are all impermanent that's like a version about that's all. Come on, let's hit it. It's true, everything you're saying is true, but it can give a lot of people anxiety, it can give people fear and I think, when you talked about that fourth one, they can certainly be a motivator. Well, okay, let's find purpose and meaning and let's you know. There we've talked about and in my therapist said, I talked about my hierarchy of needs and purpose and meaning. Is is one of them, and whether it's holy crap, I live my life and what's my purpose, or midlife crisis, or I don't care what you want to call it, but oh my gosh, I've got a finite amount of time on this round round rock and you know that can give people anxiety, that that death. So, whether it's impermanent or actual death, how do you, how do we help them? I'll give the therapist perspective.
Speaker 2:You give the Buddhist perspective yeah, I mean putting the helpfulness as a priority is important, you know so that's also another aspect of Buddhism. That there is no promotion or there is no convincing, it's more of a very verifiable truth. So there's no forcing of making somebody mindful of death, you know so, it's just something that is if it's fitting. You know so that that's my approach to it that if some, if it's gonna help a client, that's great. But if I get a sense that they're not ready to hear it or there's no benefit in hearing that, we can just leave it that way.
Speaker 2:You know, especially we've talked about this too about like in our, in the eight-four path, there's a need for the morality first before approaching anything else. So it's not like if I'm in a very unethical place where I've lied, kill, you know all these morality that I've broken if I think about death, that's probably not a good idea. I might want to end my own life, you know, something like that. So it needs to be in a particular state of mind or condition or in a particular support to talk about it yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think that's one way of saying okay, if you're not in this mindset or this insight or higher part of self, or ready to explore this, then let's not trigger this, and it's kind of like a warning for the episode.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like, like, we do talk. We just previously talked about that, creating meaning in one's life or living the morals that, whether it's society, more importantly, your own morals and values towards life if you're doing so, then facing reality or mortality might be more palatable. If you're living the way you want to, then there might be more acceptance when there's a death in your life. This is not a black and white statement, but there may be more acceptance, or acceptance of impermanence, when you're not lowering your own morals or values. We see that when it comes to addiction and relapse and behaviors, that if people keep or continue to break their own morals and values towards life, well I'm not saying that they want to have suicidal ideation, but that guilt and shame can create a downward dark spiral For the people that might be in existential crisis. I'll give you my therapy perspective. There, literally, is a therapy style for that and it's called existential therapy. Imagine that there's a therapy style for that In the context of the way we're explaining it the mindfulness of death. It can provide a unique lens for individuals to, in a safe way, explore their concerns and potentially find meaning in the face of mortality. I'll give you some philosophies or perspectives of existential therapy. One is allowing yourself to actually explore the concerns. An existential therapy really encourages individuals to explore these concerns, whether it's fear of death, whether it's freedom or lack thereof.
Speaker 1:Isolation here's a big one for people. Meaninglessness, when people feel hopeless or isolated, or just new sense of purpose and feeling what's nihilistic or meaninglessness. By doing so through a safe environment, through therapy or therapeutic Buddhist life coaching that you do, you can gain insight into their own values and their priorities. By creating a safe place to explore these things, it might not do a dark downward spiral down. It might actually do the opposite. It can be a safe place to explore this hierarchy of needs. Where is the value in creating meaning in one's life?
Speaker 1:Like you said at the beginning, the loss of people in our lives can make us see not just the fragility but see kind of spark something in us to go man. I can't take this for granted. That's a big one. So existential therapy there's just two 10-bits of it that can really connect and ground grounding. Let's talk about grounding. It's nuanced when it comes existential therapy, but in the context of that we're associating, helping individuals connect with their present experiences and foster self-awareness and engage with their lived reality. I like to call it the great reality that when we can tap into not just the fear of things but really fostering the growth and the actual beautiful self-awareness reality, it can lead to more meaning and purpose and growth. So existential anxiety and fear of death can be, at minimal, anxiety provoking, but there's therapeutic techniques to help people when they're going through this level of fear, and the word that popped in my mind is self burden and doubt. What do you think so?
Speaker 2:Hmm, yeah, those are all very relevant and it just makes me think about the kind of like extracting the essence out of all the practices is, you know, maybe too much of a simplification, but like not to dilute the truth, to live out of, to live away from delusion, to see the truth. So my death is the truth, you know. But but at the same time, kind of Navigating with the idea of paying attention. You know, my approach to life, and also with people that I work with, is also that If it's like it's, if the life is not difficult, I don't need to make it difficult. You know there's no need but more about paying attention to what shows up.
Speaker 2:So if death is not showing up, I don't need to like go look for it. You know, to create anxiety, but the way I look at it, as this topic came up, is that death has been coming up. So there's a reason for me, from my personal Higher power point of view, that there's a message, you know. So it's also, yeah, being mindful of what is showing up and then making a practice out of it instead of, well, I'm living a very happy life, but let me just think about death. To make it difficult. You know, this is not like that, but to see truth as it shows up.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yes, good, you gave us those, those four things in the beginning. Can you give us another perspective, whether it's Anything in terms of their vated Buddhism, that, whether it acknowledges or reinforces the things that you're sharing with us today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's also I think it's more related to the 32 parts of the body. I think the term is a tuba, which means corpse. So mindfulness is of corpse, is also related to mindfulness of death. So the practice itself is to visualize the death of my body and then visualizing the lifeless body, and that's part of the practice. So then you can even time speed it to like Degeneration of the body by being eaten by worms. It's very vivid and visual, but at the same time it's supposed to. For me, like when I do that, it really Creates the appreciation of the spirit, because if I think about Myself, a life, and then that visualization of the dead body, that that's my destiny one day. But also it really pronounced the essence of the spirit, that there is some kind of spirit happening. Oh, it's more about the appreciation of life that we do. So that's also another Practice in the tradition to visualize the death and then even to the point of like turning into a dust. You know, much later.
Speaker 1:It's funny as, as an American, internally I might I think we're doing video for this one, like I might poker face when you're talking. But the internally I might going oh god, where's he going with this morbid? This morbid talk about is rotting flash right. But as you share the culture and the Buddhist spiritual Belief behind this reality and this impermanence of Living and then and death, wow, it's actually beautiful, you know, and it's just so neat how Different cultures and spiritual Beliefs can can have Beautiful and mindful and different Values of Understanding and accepting and being with Death and grief and loss and the mindfulness that comes with it. So that's a Didn't know where you're going with it at first but and uh, I'm glad you shared it. Yeah, I don't think people would talk about it explicitly.
Speaker 2:But I think there is an underlying essence of that mindfulness of death in any kind of, you know, I think, all living or just philosophy in general. It's pretty much about the fact that, about the fact that, um, yeah, I don't know like the the essence of just being present, you know, like death is definitely there. So I mean also another personal thing is that I've always been afraid of the death of my parents, like that's one of the biggest fear, but then it's still true that they're gonna die one day. But like, how I think about it is so different now, you know. So it's not that it will never happen, it will happen and I will feel the feelings and it won't be pleasant, but at the same time I'm at a place where I accept it, you know. So for me that's like the growth from the place of fear that I don't want to think about it at all, to like, oh, I can think about it and that will happen one day and I can deal with the feelings when that comes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's many times that I've worked with people and they've had this mindfulness of death and their family members there often their parents or their siblings and it often leads to this fear of unfinished or relationships that are mended, or worried that they don't have better relationships with their siblings or parents. And often in our sessions the mindfulness of death leads to a mindfulness of living and, as you shared in the beginning, maybe a kickstart to make some changes in their life, so that way it doesn't lead to maybe unnecessary suffering for the time left that they have with their loved ones, and sometimes it might be the fear of death or just the mindfulness that comes with inevitable death leads to changes in people's lives and that's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a topic, what a topic yeah, Maybe we can explore more into the other aspect of it. You know, without being too explicit, but this is very, very explicit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, it's good. Maybe we'll put some I might put a warning on the episode notes. It wasn't too bad. It wasn't too bad. Yeah, thanks for bringing up this topic and we'll explore some other aspects of it, I'm sure, in the future. As we draw the curtain on today's exploration, we extend our deepest gratitude for joining us on this introspective journey. The mindfulness of death viewed through the lens of this therapist, and that Theravada, buddhist Life and Recovery Coach, isn't about dwelling on endings. It's a powerful reminder to cherish each moment and live authentically. We hope the insights shared today resonate with you, sparking contemplation and inspiring intentional living. If you found value in our conversation, don't forget to hit that like button, subscribe for more enlightening discussions and share this wisdom with your community. Remember, growth is a collective journey and we're grateful to have you as part of our collective community. Until next time, embrace the present, nurture your well-being, and may each day be a step towards a more mindful and purposeful existence. Stay well and stay mindful. My name is Lu.
Speaker 2:This is all.
Speaker 1:See you next time.
Speaker 2:Thanks.