Have you ever found yourself judging someone with addiction or mental illness before ever knowing their story? We've been there too, and it's time to unravel the complex knot of social stigma that too often exacerbates the struggle for those in recovery. Join us as we move beyond the superficial narratives, delving into the heart of why mental health and addiction deserves as much care and empathy as any other struggle. Our conversation is enriched by Buddhist teachings that advocate for self-compassion and understanding, offering a fresh perspective on an age-old issue.
As hosts, we're not shy about confronting the embarrassing whispers and the weight of others expectations that can make the road to recovery that much harder. We engage thoughtfully with the stigmatization of medication-assisted treatment and the importance of treating the brain like any other organ in need of healing. The episode is peppered with inspiring tales, showcasing that sobriety and mental health are not taboos but triumphs of the human spirit. So tune in, and let’s build a bridge of empathy, one story at a time, as we support each other on the journey toward wellness.
Visit our website!
Creating a Sustainable Recovery Plan: Mindfulness and the Power of Community — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Please send your questions to luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational, and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
Explore a mindful path with Zaw Maw's coaching—Foster balance, healing, recovery, and meditation in your life's journey through his supportive and wisdom-based guidance.
Have you ever found yourself judging someone with addiction or mental illness before ever knowing their story? We've been there too, and it's time to unravel the complex knot of social stigma that too often exacerbates the struggle for those in recovery. Join us as we move beyond the superficial narratives, delving into the heart of why mental health and addiction deserves as much care and empathy as any other struggle. Our conversation is enriched by Buddhist teachings that advocate for self-compassion and understanding, offering a fresh perspective on an age-old issue.
As hosts, we're not shy about confronting the embarrassing whispers and the weight of others expectations that can make the road to recovery that much harder. We engage thoughtfully with the stigmatization of medication-assisted treatment and the importance of treating the brain like any other organ in need of healing. The episode is peppered with inspiring tales, showcasing that sobriety and mental health are not taboos but triumphs of the human spirit. So tune in, and let’s build a bridge of empathy, one story at a time, as we support each other on the journey toward wellness.
Visit our website!
Creating a Sustainable Recovery Plan: Mindfulness and the Power of Community — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Please send your questions to luke@recoverycollectivemd.com
Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.
The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational, and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8
Explore a mindful path with Zaw Maw's coaching—Foster balance, healing, recovery, and meditation in your life's journey through his supportive and wisdom-based guidance.
Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhists in you, the podcast presented by the Recovery Collective in the heart of Annapolis, maryland. We are your hosts, luke and Zall, and today we're delving into the stigma surrounding addiction and recovery. In the ancient world, stigma was a visible mark, a brand etched upon individuals, but in the 21st century, within the realm of mental health and addiction, this transformed into a complex web of societal judgments. We're here to pave the way for a more compassionate, understanding form of recovery. Imagine this is a journey guided by Zall and I in the alliance of perspectives, aiming to redefine the narrative. We believe in the power of these conversations and we're thrilled to have you with us as we navigate through the stories of resilience and renewal. We invite you to be a part of this transformative dialogue. This is not just a podcast. It's a collective journey towards understanding, healing and breaking the chains that have held back the stories of recovery for far too long. So grab a seat, open your hearts and let's embark on this unique exploration together.
Speaker 2:Hey Zall, hey Luke, how's it going? Good to be on the recording again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good to be back and doing another episode and another important topic, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah. Where do you want to begin about addiction, I guess?
Speaker 1:I want to go with. What causes stigma of addiction? Why do you think addiction is a thing? I'll first say this a large body of research indicates that stigma is a persistent, pervasive enrooted in a belief that addiction is a personal choice, reflecting, I guess, a lack of willpower or a moral failing. What's your interpretation of that belief? Some people have that it's a choice and a moral failing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that comes from. Just like a standard society with what's considered good and bad I think it comes from there. At least from my experience in my culture definitely was treated that way because there is that morality doing what is right and what is wrong. And then, along with addiction too I think it's true all across culture it does have some crime and things like that, so people start associating addiction with these things that are not looking very good. Maybe that originates from there.
Speaker 1:So, knowing what you know now, what do you think about? I guess, growing up in a society that sees it as a moral failing? How have your thoughts changed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel more compassion towards others and also for myself my younger version of myself because addiction really is a way of treatment to a deeper problem. So it's not like an intentional choice, but something that we deal with, except that we found unhealthy way to deal with that. So in that way I feel more compassionate towards people who suffer from it, and also my younger version of myself too.
Speaker 1:Which is kind of interesting because you grew up in a very Buddhist upbringing and culture that sees addiction as a moral failing, but then again Buddhism really looks at the importance of self-compassion. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah? But then again, I think there's plenty of stigma, obviously here. When it comes to mental health and addiction, I think stigma is simply just a lack of understanding, or it's either an misunderstanding or it's fear-based. I think often stigma is based on people's fear. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. I think the definition that I've read somewhere it's some kind of unfair or negative belief about a particular thing.
Speaker 2:So it's definitely an unexamined lack of understanding or pre-assumption, that it is this way. There's a gut reaction to that, especially people who have children. There's a sense of protection that oh yeah, I don't want my child to be like that. But then it even feeds the addiction more, because that's the worst feeling for an addict to have to feel outcasted, to feel like I don't belong, and it even pays deeper path towards addiction.
Speaker 1:So I think in some ways, stigma can actually well yeah, it continues to fuel the problem. Or, for addiction, can really and mental health concerns or illnesses really make it worse. Right, we can cut out any pauses, so it's okay. So there's this good old Miriam and Webster. The dictionary and the Miriam and Webster definition is a set of negative and unfair beliefs that a society or group of people have about something. So a stigma is negative and unfair. Yeah, it sounds right. That sounds like what a stigma is. So it's the opposite of compassion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lack of empathy and lack of relatability and also, yeah, unexamined assumption, because those are all that comes to mind as we're talking about thinking about stigma, negative, unfair belief and some kind of conditioning too? I guess that's a Buddhist concept of that. There has been some kind of conditioning, either societies before or from young age. There's things that is made up, molded to a particular way, that we don't question.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it's often a go-to for people when it comes to mental health or mental illnesses and addiction? Why is stigma often a go-to? Not just like the exception in a small minority does it, but a large portion of any population especially. It's been happening for centuries. When it comes to substance use and abuse and mental illnesses, that stigma is often the first go-to for so many.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think about human mind from a Buddhist perspective in terms of the human conditioning can be simplified, as I always look for something that is pleasant, pleasurable, you know, ease, and I don't like pain, uncomfortable, yeah. So stigma is like that too, that when I see somebody who's struggling with addiction or mental health, like, oh, I don't want that, you know there's a repulsion instead of oh, what's going on with that person? I want to know. You know, that's not our immediate reaction, that I want to understand. You tell me what's going on, you know. But it's more like, oh, I don't like what I'm seeing, let me, I don't want to be like that person. You know, I don't want my children to be like that person. That really is like the immediate reaction to addiction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess, especially with addiction, that it's often a significant either perceived or reality of, yes, challenge, yes, vulnerability, and people often take that as a sign of weakness. And if it's a sign of weakness, well then you know, I should be able to not abuse drugs or alcohol or crack or cocaine, or I shouldn't be depressed, I should be able to, you know, do this myself. And if there's that level of vulnerability to perceived as weakness, then, yeah, that's leads to their own stigma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are just so many things that happen to us while we were young. It doesn't have to be traumatic, but like there are just so many things that happen and we're just absorbing, right. So in that way, especially if addiction becomes like a self-medication or a way to treat what was suffer younger, it's not our fault, anyone, you know, because I didn't know any better, we didn't know any better. So that that comes to mind too when it comes to this. Person did not wake up one day and I know I'm gonna be an addict. You know that's my mission. Yeah, but it's more like okay, because we only realized that after it was too late.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to touch on stigma in three categories. We've got stigma towards treatment the family and the stigma that they have with their loved one that has a mental health issue or addiction issue. And stigma towards medications Treatment family stigma and medications Treatment. Let's start there. I mean, who wants to go to treatment for 24 hours, let alone 30? Right, I mean. I mean that's a pun intended, that's a hard pill to swallow.
Speaker 2:I'm not that bad, right, I don't need treatment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're seeing how stigma is compounded. It's showing us just gosh, is it really this bad? And we say that even that can be a stigma. I'm not this bad.
Speaker 2:It's in a way of like avoiding responsibility, like unplugging, going away, I don't know. There's just so many effects or assumptions surrounding that that, oh, can you not do it by yourself? Do you? Are you that bad? Yeah, do you really need to go, you know?
Speaker 1:So what about stigma with family? You had quite a journey from recovery and you're the son of two parents in the medical field, so I imagine that they had some. I mean, every family goes man. What's my part in this? That's some capacity. Did you ever talk to your parents about that aspect, maybe the stigma of their son? Who correct me if I'm wrong? You know they take a lot of pride in getting a higher education overseas and take us through that journey from your perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the good news is they were very happy now, you know. So that's a good part, but they definitely had to go through a lot. But I guess it's first of all it's just very embarrassing. That's also part of the stigma too, that I don't know if it's true for all family, but when there is a family, there is that family image.
Speaker 2:And like you were saying too if something's wrong, you're like oh, what did I do wrong Racing this child? And then it also becomes a view that is an expression of how I race this child. So if he's an addict, maybe it's something that I did wrong, so let it just like fix this problem on our own without letting anybody know.
Speaker 2:It even creates more of like hiding the problem, not asking for help. But for my parents it was even worse because, yeah, they thought it was a moral issue and also mingling with the wrong crowd, things like that. So no concept of like addiction, disease of addiction. So that was even harder for them and harder for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think whenever there's a struggle, moral issue or not, or just a mess up I mean internally I'll speak for myself it can be a certain degree of embarrassing and then throw one to your point hanging out with the wrong crowd. Or, you know, for me, my parents getting a call at 3 am from a police officer thinking that I'm dead Like who can they relate to that experience? You know that's not something that they can go. Hey, so I felt my child was dead at 3 am, but no, apparently he has a felony charge. You know it's embarrassing.
Speaker 1:So the family stigma, you know, can feel really isolated and often for family members, often a core characteristic or a belief system for families is to help one another and a lot of times families do a really good job to support each other so they don't have to feel the full pain of whatever's going on in their life. That's the benefit of a family, whatever your definition of a family is. And when families don't feel like they can help their loved one, well, that can lead to, like you're saying, isolation, embarrassment, immoral, failing. What did I do wrong? Yeah, that's tough. Yeah, when we feel like we can't help our loved one because of their mental health concern or substance use. It's tough. We had last year a gentleman talking about his son died by suicide and he lost a lot of friends. Instead of supporting them, they turn their back on them. Even friends of family members go gosh. What do they do wrong? That's out there. It can be very isolating.
Speaker 1:Stigma is real. Stigma is real. What about medication? All kinds of stigma. How do we counteract stigma with medication? We can certainly talk about some of the frustrations with medications in our society. I totally understand that aspect. There's plenty of episodes where we talk about that. How do we minimize the stigma when it comes to medication?
Speaker 2:I've experienced it in my own experience too, thinking about medication as a crutch. I know there is that aspect where people abusing or overusing things like that there might be assumption or some kind of a preconceived notion about that. My take on that is that after I've identified the problem or the disease, there's a medication for that Problem. Medication problem reduce or maintain or fixed. In that way. It's pretty straightforward. There definitely is stigma towards that. Again similar to what we talked about earlier the weakness. Why can you not use your own mind, use your own full power instead of relying on the medication? That's a sign of weakness. It's a sign of why do you need to rely on that?
Speaker 1:I want to empower that statement. Medication like a crutch. When do we use crutches?
Speaker 2:When legs, hands broken.
Speaker 1:When bones are broken. We use crutches when we need it. Then we use it to assist us to get range of motion and ambulatory, so that way we don't hurt or damage more. I'm okay with medication being a crutch. I don't see too many people walk around crutches when they don't need it. Let's empower that statement. It's funny that that's the line that we all use when it comes to medication, when people abuse it. I don't see people abusing crutches too often, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like how you're pointing that out, because there's also that idea of all or nothing or dependency Medication. They are lifelong things but there are also medications where you need, especially if you're reporting honestly to people who's giving you care. There's always that working together that, okay, you probably need this medication for this time and we can increase this, reduce it. Based on that communication, based on things are. It reminds me of that point too, about the crutch when my bones are here, I can walk, but there is a period where I need to rely on the crutch for the healing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Medication can be used in that way For some people medications for mental health or for reducing cravings, or medical assisted treatment. That can be life-saving Not just a crutch for support, but completely life-saving. The brain is like any other organ. We don't seem to have that stigma when it's with high blood pressure in the heart or we're not producing insulin or whatever else. It might be For some reason, when we talk about the organ of the brain, it's like this whole other stigma. The brain is like any other organ in the body.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm a big advocate and you know I'm a big believer in doing all the other parts you can, so that way all parts of the self physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and socially can help each other out. We are the most magnificent puzzle on this earth and the emotional, physical and spiritual can help the chemical potentially imbalance. But yeah, the brain is an organ and to think it's always working 100%, it ain't. And mine isn't right now because my family has the flu and I'm foggy, so and I know that and I'm okay with that. So yeah, it's. That's a big piece.
Speaker 2:Good. Yeah, I'm not sure if we're ready for the good news part yet, but everything that you're saying really, you know, encourages the room about, the room for either changing that stigma or educating, educating the society for better understanding. But from what I'm thinking right now is that, especially, it is undeniably true that addiction is affecting people. So I think the power is more in empowering recovery. You know, like, if we see that I mean, that's been my experience too that the more I see people who are in recovery and doing positive things, you know so I'm focusing more on the positive instead of how do I erase the negative. You know so the more we focus on the positive.
Speaker 2:It just spreads, and negativity kind of reduces its power.
Speaker 1:Stigma often thrives in silence and shame can silence individuals further. So I love the empowerment. You know you brought up the self compassion and the Buddhist perspectives and how embracing our own imperfections and struggles can be a transformative step in breaking down the walls of our own internalized stigma and the power of vulnerability. Sharing personal stories can be hugely empowering but it also requires vulnerability. So when we show that side we may worry that we're going to get hurt. But boy, being open about our struggles and challenge the stigma, we begin to break those old patterns and we begin to change the stigma. And there's a strength to that. I'll give you an example. There's a reason why cigarettes aren't smoked everywhere anymore. Used to happen all the time everywhere, everywhere. People were smoking cigarettes in the airport, you know, in the restaurant in your house, I can't imagine. In like the I guess the 60s it was like every wall yellow from cigarettes and now it's almost like a stigma to smoke.
Speaker 1:Osha standards, occupational Safety and Health Administration. In 1970, there was a department of labor and they said for the labor union, no, we have to follow safety protocols. And before there'd be someone from OSHA that says, nope, you got to wear this helmet and these old school guys would be like F, you get out of here, or they wouldn't tie up and their harnesses right. But now you wouldn't even consider that If people saw you not wearing a helmet or tie up right on a job site, they'd look at you and go what the heck are you doing Like? The stigma isn't to look big and bad. The stigma is why aren't you caring about your safety and your health? So now being able to do this for our own well-being, our own health, our mental health, our substance use journey is, to your point, touch upon that a little bit more. The empowering part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. You know, it's all about enjoying life and finding happiness. So I don't know recovery community, it's just the best part for that. First of all, you don't feel alone and second of all, you feel hopeful that it is possible, you know, to accept that we do have this problem.
Speaker 2:There's a disease of addiction, but like I don't have to die as an addict you know I can die as a sober alcoholic or sober addict or so that's very empowering. But also like it goes back to what we were kind of bringing that up to about. Like addiction was like a treatment for something that needed to be addressed before that. So like, if I'm addressing that and enjoying life, there's less temptation. And I think it's even true for people who are, who haven't found addiction as a disease yet, you know. But if they start enjoying life and I think about my children that way too that if I can do my best to provide positive enjoyment, they do, and then addiction is not as appealing. You know, if I'm enjoying life because it really is a treatment and escape or checking out, you know it does have that effect. That's why we did it, that's why I did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's getting to that point. And when we're not at the point being okay, that we're not okay, if things aren't where we want them to be, how do we reach out for help? And that'd be okay. And I think that takes education and awareness, and it takes campaigns, and it takes realization of how mental illness and chemical imbalances work and how addiction works on the brain. And even though we feel that one day, and all of a sudden we get surprised, you know, 24 hours later, the next week, and we hit this low bottom like man, how did I get here again? And getting help with that?
Speaker 1:And I think part of culture is promoting positive role models. I mean, I think, gosh, it's like in the state of Maryland we have Michael Phelps and he's been very vocal about his journey with some chemical use and certainly his mental health and he's an advocate for seeking therapy and treatment. And his sister is wonderful and she's in recovery and she's doing life coaching and recovery coaching and I just think about people in you know, m&m, the Detroit Lions are in the playoffs and he's an advocate for recovery and my god, now we're going for best pictures and stuff like that and Bradley Cooper and musicians like Macklemore, and there are all these people that are. They begin to be cool, to be to care about your mental health and sobriety. I think it's beginning to do a paradigm shift. What do you think it's inspiring?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's very neat, yeah you touched on this a little bit too earlier about the connection between stigma and silence. You know I spend more on that too, because that's a power that I've seen in my own recovery journey and also in recovery community. There is a sense of trust. You know, I think trust opens communication. Trust open the courage to ask for help, but silence has to do with judgment. You know fear. So like that's also what I feel good about these great examples and recovery community, or you know, where people have those stories and it invites people who are struggling that you're not alone but also that you can open up and trust and ask for help, because it can be a very lonely world where I think I'm the only one dealing with this and there's no one else. It can be very frightening.
Speaker 1:It's one of my. There's plenty of things that I love doing about being a therapist, but that kind of transition, seeing clients go from what do I tell my friends, my coworkers, my loved ones, my boss, and going from I'm not going to shout out on top of the rooftop I don't know what I ever asked you to to them getting more and more comfortable with their own stigma and minimizing their own shame and their own fear and being more comfortable in just being a person that doesn't use anymore, or a person that has depression, anxiety or bipolar or whatever it is, and they're treating it and then seeing that shift of fear, unknown doubt, uncertainty. How do they address people to? They just get comfortable and it's their own stigma, not the other people's stigma, that they struggle with, and their own fears and the silence and the shame. And that's a big thing we do, as you know, you as a life coach, recovery coach and me as a therapist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think like it even extends beyond people in recovery. There are just so many principles in recovery or tools that people who struggle with addiction use that go across the board. I think it even is inspiring to non addict you know, non alcoholic because there's a sense of, yeah, not giving up, but also that courage to ask for help and then, yeah, almost like embracing and making the best out of the worst, and there's something very humanly inspiring about that that goes beyond people outside of addiction as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, well said, we're beginning to challenge stereotypes. Huh, Doesn't get this way overnight, doesn't change overnight. Huh, Any other thoughts? As we wrap up this conversation and it's something that I think you know we talk about, whatever things we often say in the beginning of our intro of every episode, we often say a collective solution to health and wellness. Part of health and wellness is allowing yourself to get healthier and get healthier, get well, you know, and that's takes vulnerability, it takes courage and it takes conversations to humanize this, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, as you mentioned, stereotypes to. I guess the final message that comes to mind for me is about you know, I'm all about connections, these things you know, because, especially, I feel I missed out a lot on the connection deep in my addiction and also in my fearful days. So that's, I want to promote that and I want to encourage people to do that, especially in this day of like social media and internet and things like that. Like the world is not as it seems, there's so many things that are hidden and I don't know what it is until I interact. So like a person out there is somewhere would seem like he's me, but he's actually a very nice person, but I won't find out until I communicate. So I really want to spread that message of interacting with each other, because we never know, the appearance doesn't always reflect the internal role of people. So for me, that's been the best mystery and also a curiosity. When I wake up, I just want to talk to people to really see their internal role and fulfill my role too.
Speaker 1:Well said, Well said. Let's close on that, shall we, Okay? In conclusion, let's carry forward the wisdom gained from today's exploration, Acknowledge the power of your story and brace vulnerability and cultivate empathy. These are the building blocks of a society free from the chains of stigma. Remember recovery is a journey and every step forward is a triumph. Let's continue this dialogue, challenge perceptions and build a world where everyone's journey is met with compassion and understanding. Thank you for being a part of a therapist's abuse in you. Until next time, stay resilient, stay compassionate and remember your story is powerful catalysts for your change. Please like, comment, subscribe and share with others, as collectively we can do a lot together. My name is Luke and this is Zau. See you next time.