A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
Discovering Inner Peace: A Journey through Buddhist Monkhood and Mindfulness Practices
Have you ever wondered about the journey of becoming a Buddhist monk and its impact on one's life? Join us as we uncover the experience of our co-host, Zaw Maw, and the valuable tools he gained through his monkhood journey in Myanmar as an adolescent. We'll share these tools and insights with you and show how exploring past experiences can help us better understand our present selves.
In this episode, we dive into a Buddhist monk's daily life, from the monastery's structure to the practice of almsgiving and meditation. Zaw shares his experience with Buddhist fasting and how it affected his mindfulness and concentration. He also discusses the evening routine of Dharma talks with the local community, which played a significant role in his spiritual development.
As we explore the impact of Zaw's time as a Buddhist monk in his teenage years, we'll discuss the power of an empty mind, the discipline and obedience of monks, and the harmony between nature and the mind. We'll also examine how Buddhism has become a more accessible resource for Zaw in his journey of recovery and sobriety. We invite you, our listeners, to reach out to us with questions from this episode, and we look forward to answering them in our next episode.
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Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
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Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist NU, brought to you by The Recovery Collective in Annapolis, maryland. It's a podcast where we embark on a journey of self-discovery and collective growth. I'm your co-host, luke DeBoy, a therapist passionate about all things health and wellness, and joining me on this enlightening adventure is my co-host, a master, ozen Zommal.
Speaker 2:What an introduction. Keep coming up with these terms.
Speaker 1:There's more coming. I got a few more in my head. Welcome everyone. Zall is a wise and compassionate Buddhist practitioner, and together we'll explore the intersections of psychology, spirituality, health and wellness, offering practical insights along the way. So thanks for tuning in and joining our community. Please communicate with us and other listeners on our Facebook page, instagram and YouTube. All these links will be in our episode notes.
Speaker 1:We're here to provide you with the valuable tools and perspectives that can transform your life. If you find our podcast helpful, we greatly appreciate your support. Like, subscribe, comment, review. Share our podcast with others is certainly a wonderful way to support, and if you'd like to donate, please do, as we now have a donate button. I believe it looks like a heart, but we'll confirm that the next time. Remember it's through our collective efforts that we can uncover solutions to all things related to health and wellness. Zall, you've been a Theravada Dhritavada Buddhist practitioner and life in recovery coach at the Recovery Collective, and his podcast wouldn't have happened unless you were part of it. There's no way I'm doing this by myself, so thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for making it happen. It's been really fun.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I couldn't fathom doing it without you, so I've been doing this journey with you, and today I'd like to reflect on your Buddhist monkhood and learn more about your experience, potential struggles and growth through that journey. How does that sound?
Speaker 2:That sounds good Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I often say this where do we start? Well, can you share your personal journey of becoming a Buddhist monk? and on a map, people will hear it as me and Marr see it when they Google. Google is me and Marr. You often refer to it before they changed it in 1989 to Burma. Can you give us a little bit of history? Why maybe you still call it Burma And it's now the military government officially changed it to me and Marr, But why do you still call it Burma?
Speaker 2:It might be one of the only countries that has two names these days. Yeah, so it gets pretty confusing. We also did an episode on that too, so the information is already there, but for me I just feel more comfortable saying Burma. No particular reason, but it definitely is. Sometimes I get pointed out why are you still called Burma? I say, if I'm out of date, why are you still not catching up? I give a speech. The other day and one of the participants came up to me. I got to ask you a question Why do you still call it Burma? It's me and Marr now, but yeah, i don't know, i attach Burmese and Burma with Buddhism in a way, so maybe that's why I'm not sure. And also, as I've mentioned before too, i am fully Burmese and Burma, and Burmese is just one of the ethnicities in the whole country. There are different other ethnicities as well. So, yeah, it's politically confusing and also kind of a political statement, but I do feel I'm used to calling it Burma.
Speaker 1:And I'll give you a little bit my perspective. And like Zall said, the name was primarily driven by political reasons and intended to reflect the country's diverse ethnic composition. However, my understanding of the change in the official name was met with mixed reactions and it remains a subject of political debate. Some groups, including pro-democracy activists and ethnic minorities, continue to use the name Burma, as opposed to the, i guess, military, government-based driven given name. So I can certainly understand why Burma is a way to express, for some, a way to oppose the military regime for some. Yeah, so I might go back and forth, but you certainly trained me to call it Burma And I think I do that in that respect to you and how you see it.
Speaker 1:So, let's talk about that monkhood journey in Burma. So can you describe how someone goes from being a little boy to the monkhood experience? It is part of the culture in Burma, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, it is Yeah And yeah. I'm glad we're doing an episode on this. Based on the theme of the episode, i do want to reflect on my experience. My intention is to bring out some of the tools and the experience that I learned from it that is useful for me in my modern day stressful life, and also how it can be useful to the listeners as well. So that's the intention.
Speaker 1:You'll keep me honest, so take me from the journey and we'll get to that quicker, sooner than later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the experience was quite not that long It was. I was also pretty young and my Buddhist practice actually got deepened much later in my life when I got sober and being more introduced to spirituality through different fellowships and different friends in recovery. So for me it's just like an experience that was kind of packed in that timeline where I can keep digging from my present self. So that's how I recall it. I feel like there's so many things that I can dig in out of that limited summer experience.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, just to give a brief picture, it just, yeah, part of the culture when you are in your teenage years. you just joined the monkhood. It's not like a rigorous, it's not like you're being trained to become the head monk or anything, but it's more like like a preview or a glimpse of a monkhood experience. because that's also another reason why I prefer saying Burma, because you know there are different divisions and in the central part of the country it's called Mandalay, which is where the ancient capital used to be, nipiro, and then my mom is from that area and it's Buddhism is practiced a lot more prevalently there. So it was just one summer when there, with my family, i enter monkhood with my cousin together And yeah it was. it was quite an experience, you know, shaving head, wearing robes, reciting, memorizing some Bali chants, and then I'll also get into the daily routine and stuff, but I hope that kind of is a good enough introduction.
Speaker 1:So you were young and adolescent, and this lasted. How long?
Speaker 2:A couple of months, yeah, for the summer.
Speaker 1:Is this something with the intent of strengthening spirituality, the culture? How did you view that?
Speaker 2:The view is, you know, merit is talked a lot in Buddhism. In our culture, investing or merit is like good karma and bad karma. So when you there's a generosity aspect, you know where you donate, you're putting in merit and you gain merit from it. So sending your teenage son into monkhood is also one of those merit. You gain merit by doing that. So it's actually good for the parents in a way.
Speaker 2:But, reflecting on my own experience too, it was also a good merit for myself as well, because, yeah, i get to experience, because the training is quite rigid in terms of because, as a layman, there are five precepts that I had to follow, but as a Buddhist novice, there are more precepts and it gives me an idea of how I can take confidence in my action and how it can purify my thoughts. So it was like a yeah, i mean it is a spiritual development, but also a structure for a teenager. I was kind of like a spoil kid. You know, my dad is a doctor, my mom is a nurse and we live in the city, but I do enjoy going to my mom's village because life is just so simple, and then entering monkhood, it was even more immersed into that villagehood experience. So yeah, i really savor and embrace that memory.
Speaker 1:After that experience, what happened? What was next?
Speaker 2:So interestingly so. there is like a procedure that you had to follow to leave monkhood back into layman. I don't remember the actual story, why or how it happened, but I went back to the city as a Buddhist novice instead of just robing in the village. So I remember going back to my own apartment with my parents still wearing robe, and I think I had to go to the monastery to go through that procedure in a proper way. Yeah, i guess the equivalent here people who have gone through retreat I guess that will be a similar experience, because it unplugged me out of a regular routine, a city life, and then the teenage experience and then plugging back in. So it was like a refresh reset kind of experience where I appreciated both experiences.
Speaker 1:Is there traditionally or culturally or maybe in certain families, that the hope is that you continue with the monkhood.
Speaker 2:Not really. No, I mean there are examples where some teenagers or, yeah, some people who have entered monkhood and they prefer there and they decided not to enter a layman again. But the whole intention is just kind of like a preview of it's a temporary monkhood experience. I don't know if we've mentioned that to the listeners, but we do meditate before we start the podcast And this time, before we did this podcast, the meditation was quite vivid for me, although it was short, because I know that we're doing an episode on this. So I think, if it's appropriate, I can just like go deeper and do that experience, Because I was also getting a little emotional too about not to be too dramatic, but like life today is stressful.
Speaker 2:I do miss being back in Burma, but like specifically being in the village, how simple life was And I was having those images while we're meditating of like the birds and the chicken or rooster. You know that's like the alarm clock, no electricity, candles, stove. So I had that vivid image of that and was kind of reflecting on that. That life can be very simple. I want to also talk about some of the things that I still use from that experience today, because there are so many things that I can still practice as a layman. There are some things that I was taught in Navin's hood which I can still adopt and use it without having to be a monk.
Speaker 1:So is that experience? trying to understand what the ultimate and this is just me not knowing the ultimate intention of that experience Is it to enrich the Buddhist and you, because they call it Navin's hood and monk hood, as a layman. So I'm trying to understand what this experience, whether it was what it was intended for and what you got from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think that tradition goes back to the ancient time. So there is a reason for that and I don't know the exact details, but in the Burmese tradition or since from the ancient time, the Buddhist order or the monastic order has always been infused with the kingdom in a way. So maybe there is an intersection between the two. But I think the intention also to not to promote but just like to keep Buddhism going, because from my experience too, there are so many things that I get It really strengthened my layman Buddhist practice from that, because it was like an advanced or full-immersed Buddhist practice where I only practice in a limited way as a layman. So it was like a full, immersive kind of experience.
Speaker 1:How many months was your monkhood experience? You said it was during the summer.
Speaker 2:During the summer, yeah, for a couple months.
Speaker 1:And can you take us through your routine? I imagine it was pretty regimentally structured.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was a residential kind of experience, where you live in the monastery, and so the first day was in the evening, where you meet the head monk and then your parents come with you and then there is this white sheet where your parents hold it right in front of you and then the head monk use a single razor blade and shave your head and then you catch all those hair on the white sheet.
Speaker 2:So you're holding this sheet, or your parents My parents were And then after that you have to recite some of the chants just like a call and response with the head monk, and then you wear the robe and that's the beginning of the monkhood. And then what does?
Speaker 1:the shaving of the head symbolize.
Speaker 2:Simplicity and also unnecessary burden, in a way, which is what monastic life is all about to simplify and to get rid of the things that are unnecessary, and hair is one of them I have long hair.
Speaker 1:For those that don't know, yeah Well, simple, i just don't cut it. Often, even the white sheet or the white blanket. I wonder if that does that symbolize something specific or just tradition.
Speaker 2:It's just a tradition, yeah, and yeah, there is something very symbolic about that to see black hair on the white sheet, very vivid. And then, yeah, single blade razor was also scary. I think I had some cuts.
Speaker 1:I imagine heads around and blades are not. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was it. And then I do remember the yeah, i do remember everything very vividly. I wonder how it would be like if I ever visit there nowadays. you know, because I have a very vivid memory of how things are like, which will probably be very different today. Also, you sleep on the monastery, which is like a hardwood floor and there is no bed. You just sleep on this like a bamboo shape pillow, which is not as comfortable, and then it's just like hard floor. That's where you sleep.
Speaker 1:It's not down feathers. If I could take one step back, i imagine for Americans and people in the West, that you're around seven or eight years old Now. I know you know you're probably out through your whole life and that you're going to have this experience. But being seven or eight years old and in America, saying goodbye to your parents for months can feel like quite an experience for a lot of us or people with kids. What was that like for you, being seven, saying goodbye to got your head shaved and you're going to say goodbye to your parents for a couple weeks and a month or two?
Speaker 2:Yeah, correction. Yeah, I was in seven. I was already 12, 13.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, good 12.
Speaker 2:But still Yeah, but there are some kids, or some my monkhood friend I guess, who entered monkhood at that kind of age.
Speaker 2:Okay, were kind of like an old friend age too, that when parents are like yeah, enter monkhood, you know we can take care of you, kind of thing. So I made some friends, monkhood friends with them too And it was like a very valuable friendships with them too, because they've never lived a Lima life in a way. So but yeah, that experience was not because my parents were in that village, kind of like staying with my aunts in a big house So I can still see them, okay. So like I was like completely cut off from them, but at the same time, when that they start, the next day the official monkhood started.
Speaker 2:That's also the part where I want to explore more into in reflection.
Speaker 2:Is that, because you use the term spiritual development in the beginning? So like in a way, if I reflect on that, it was like I got access to what I was capable of spiritually in a way. So it's like a Higher self of me that was waiting in a way, because there's structure that I had to follow And I was expected to follow those and I just felt so good in a way that it was like a spiritual realm that I was able to enter, with some rules that I had to follow. So it was like a I'm still myself, but then my Plane of thinking or my plane of existence Was very, very different the next day and it has something to do with the, the community of monks as well, because you became part of the community- Yeah, you're in this connection, You're in this Intention with other men and boys and with hey we're here, we go about how many We're in your group, so we can get a visual of this monastery in the yeah in the central Burma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there are different ranks, which is by age and also by the years that you have joined monkhood We call it wa, which is defined by the lunar calendar. So when you talk to a monk you can Kind of gauge the rank by the wa, which is how many Monsoon season have you gone through, kind of thing. So but for us, since we're young, there's like a novice group, but there's also a monkhood adult monk group. But for us I had my cousin with me and then other Younger monks. I think it was about a group of 10, 15 people. But, as I've mentioned, there are other monks who have been Novice monks for like five, six, seven years. By that point already They were not like completely new.
Speaker 2:But to walk through the day, you know, those days went by really fast because there was like a routine that I had to follow Which was actually really good because it was like a structure that I had to get used to.
Speaker 2:But once I got used to it It was just like very peaceful. But the thing that I remember the most in regards to them and the community is that Part of the routine is also to beg for food in the morning for lack of a better word, like you have the, the alms I put is you have these like aware alms that you hold with you and there's a particular way of holding it, and then you walk in the village together with other monks In line, and then you don't wear shoes or anything, your bare barefoot. It's like four or five in the morning, very quiet, and it's almost like that walking is like a meditation of his own because there is no talking involved, and then you don't look at the people who donate food to you, you just look down and then collect food. That's how the day began. I woke up really early.
Speaker 1:I was asked to meditate for like 45 minutes or an hour as soon as I wake up And then we start wearing the ropes and start walking in the village to beg for food and this seems to be part of the monastic style of Buddhism and and is this seen as specifically Tidavata Buddhism that would do this, or a lot of Buddhist practices and Monasteries would happen this way.
Speaker 2:I think it is in Mahayana Buddhism as well, i'm not sure, okay, but I'm curious about some American Buddhist monk here though, because because and that's how Buddhist monks survive, you know in Asian culture because it's when you see a monk You feel inspired to donate, you know, and that's part of the merit, merit, yeah, part of the good karma That you, you give or donate and you would get in return.
Speaker 1:So this, i would start your day You would wake up and meditate For how long before you would bring this you a bowl for food, i guess hmm, How long would you meditate to start your day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, looking back, i was quite a what's the word, how do you call it? Amateur meditator, you know, because it was quite a challenge for me to be still, because I was asked to meditate for 45 minutes And there are so many mosquitoes too, oh, so we had like mosquito nets, which was helpful. So, yeah, it was about 45 minutes and the instruction was just pretty simple of paying attention to the breath and then to do some chanting And then loving kindness practice. So it was about 45 minutes, but you do it with a group, so that was really good. So, yeah, 45 minutes is how we begin the day.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I imagine the the food you collected was Not like this lavish meal. What would be the, the donations of food that you would receive every day to eat?
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of them are quite delicious. Yeah, i'm biased with just rice, okay, yeah because village Yeah, villagers are great cooks, so and then they put a lot of like their love into it, i guess. But yeah, you know rice, really warm Cozy rice with some curry, you know fish, chicken curry, stuff like that, and some beans. Maybe I'm misremembering or kind of like glorify.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at his eyes and it's bringing back that warm, cozy feeling for him. Yeah and was this a Large meal, smart small meal, first meal of many throughout the day? What was it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when you actually collect you have your own Alms, which is like a leckerware, black, which is like a bowl, so people put stuff in it when you donate. But when you actually get back to the monastery It's like a share of food. So it's not like you only eat what's in your arm, but like when you get back there are also like layman Helper in the monastery who arrange food, because they do that as a volunteer. So you get back and then you eat together. I guess you eat later than the head monks, but it was like a community eating as well, but you don't eat it as soon as you get back, but there are some rituals or meditation or chanting that we had to do first And there is a eating time that you eat. All the food share.
Speaker 1:And I know this is central Burma. How long was your walk to the village?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so that was about an hour, i think. yeah, it was like a very slow walk, which is part of the meditation. I guess, yeah, so it was like an hour-long walk One way, one way. Yeah, it's like a round, you know, back to the monastery, and the monastery itself is not too far from the village.
Speaker 1:So you ate what's next during this normal daily routine and day one of or day two of your monkhood?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there is also a monastic education in Burma where you can get advanced and then it's like a real education. So there are some. I wasn't like gonna take tests or anything to be advanced, but there's some Chance and some recitation that I had to study. So that's how I remember my earlier days, because before because you don't eat anything past noon, so like sometimes you eat right before noon just to get ready. So before that, in between, i remember reciting or memorizing The chance that I was kind of behind, so which is also part of my meditation practice. But, yeah, kind of like socializing in a way. Not a lot of talking, but it was good to get to know those other younger monks talking to them And they were also like curious about my layman life, you know, because they never live in the city. So there are some like Talking involved as well, kind of take it easy kind of thing you alluded to your bamboo Pillow.
Speaker 1:What is the room set up like?
Speaker 2:It was like a hallway. There were no rooms, yeah, okay, maybe like a blanket and a pillow and that's it. You have like your space in the hallway Okay, we love. and then a mosquito net, which is how you define your space, i guess.
Speaker 1:Give us more of the visual of this, this hallway. How many are in this hallway?
Speaker 2:So it's quite common, on the top floor or the second floor of the monastery Do you have like a hard floor and then you would see a shrine where there is a Buddha Statue which is pretty, quite big, elevated, and there are like some flowers or donations or fruits, so that's like the main center of the hallway and then the whole hallway is just like broad Rumi hallway and then they're different. I mean, there's nothing during the day But you have to set up that mosquito net and then the pillow and the blanket when you are about to sleep. So it's like in a, in a row of like 10 or 15 people.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, take us through more of the monastery for us So we understand the Visually what it's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking these questions, because I'm like taking all these things for granted, that, oh yeah, this nurse should know or something. But yeah, it's like a pretty white compound and I think there is also like a creek or a river in the back, but lots of empty space, very dusty, lots of like earth, ground, some grass, and there's also like a feel Where we play soccer weren't played around, allowed to play soccer. I wasn't a good Buddhist monk. I play soccer with my, yeah, but it's monks anyway. And then different, you know, buildings or different like, yeah, different smaller buildings, and And there's also a stupa on the monastery, which is also quite common, which is like a small little bagoda, like a shrine, a pile of gold, yeah, so it's pretty wide spread out and that place is used to, to meditate and give Gifts or merits to it, or no?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what stupa usually is. I don't know if it was as big, but a stupa usually is like a bagoda, where there are different corners, and then you walk around it or you would, you know, put some candlelight or pour some water or some fragrance fruits, so But it was just like a small one at that monastery. I think, yeah, and then, yeah, the rest is just the rest of the day, which is Meditation, you know, which is also what I want to talk about, about the fasting. You know, i guess nowadays we're calling it like intermittent fasting, which is pretty much my Buddhist fasting was like So you're at noon noon time noon time and then you're not supposed to eat anything Until you break the fast in the morning.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of like a scary thought for me. I was like I don't not supposed to eat anything past noon, like nothing, and I thought I was gonna be hungry and like stuff like that. But actually, interestingly too, it actually I was able to concentrate more and I was like less Fatigue or drowsy, because I didn't know it back then. But technically our body span Energy to digest food. So when you're not eating, you're saving that energy that you will be using for digesting. So actually you're even. You get even more energy. It takes calories to burn calories. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So which help with that meditation?
Speaker 2:and then, you're allowed to drink some tea, so that was also helpful. And then I drank water. Whenever I'm hungry, make me realize, yeah, when I drink water I was, i was just thirsty, i wasn't actually hungry, you know.
Speaker 2:And then it helped with the meditation or the chanting whenever I've had a hunger, i just said, to direct my thoughts towards something else. So it was a really good experience and which is also something that I still use nowadays or throughout my life. Later. That Buddhist fasting was always very helpful If I'm like preparing for an exam, or when I was in college getting ready for a deadline, or when I'm in a very difficult part in my life I have like a commitment or a vow. On a full moon day, i will like fast or practice the intermittent fasting for seven days or whatever my determination is.
Speaker 1:And that gives you, through your Buddhist lens, an intention. What does it do for you? And what I'm trying to do is related to that, the Buddhist perspective, why it's so beneficial for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's yeah. That would be something that is useful for the listeners. I think I hope that there is a gift of choice, that I have an ability to choose, and that can be empowering. I'm not like a slave to this universe where things are already order, which is kind of true, but then I can make a decision, so like whenever I make a commitment like that, or when I set an intention not to lie, not to steal, not to kill, like I am actually empowered by those actions because I am capable of doing that And fasting is kind of like that too, that I set an intention because I already know the benefits of that. First of all, i'm not going to die. Second of all, i gain more concentration. So it's more like staying true to the intention that you set. And then it's also like a self empowering, like higher self esteem kind of thing. You would say you would do something and you actually do it and you raises your esteem in a way.
Speaker 1:So it seems to be a lot. Obviously, i'm stating the obvious. I think that a lot of the things that are being done structurally with regimen are to create a condition with the intention of mindfulness, the intention of meditation, spirituality. What am I trying to say here? There's a reason why you cut you here. There's a reason why you wake up at 4 am. There's a reason why we take off the other garbs and wear a robe.
Speaker 2:There's a reason why, yeah, it creates room for more investigation introspection Because oh yeah, why was I? Did I need to wear those clothes? Or did I need the hair? Did I need to eat, Like there were just some questioning aspect of Which is also part of Buddha's meditation to investigate. One of the instructions by the Buddha on meditation is when one breathes, one knows that he's breathing. One breathes in and he knows that he's breathing.
Speaker 2:That instruction already is very deep because it can be an investigative instruction. So one breath in and one knows that he's breathing. So the investigation would be how do I know that I'm breathing? So same thing like that with these fasting and wearing robes, why am I doing this Or why was I even doing that? So it gives you that pause and the mindfulness practice where there is a space between the input and how you respond. Now you don't react. There's like a pause between oh, what is a wiser action to respond to this. So that, to me, was very valuable, which I still go back to today.
Speaker 1:So what's next? It's past noon. You are doing your afternoon meditations or chants. What happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there are also some Dharma talks as well I guess that is that term More like discourses being given by the head monk. Those were also part of the evening routine, which are also really good, because that's also when the community come together not just monk but like the villagers come to for that. So that's like a preparation for that. That's what we kind of like look forward to in the evening. And then the day ends quite easily because, especially because there is no electric city, so when it gets dark you go to bed, which kind of makes sense, because you got to wake up early the next morning anyway. No iPad or iPhone or electronics TV, nothing. So it was pretty good. So, yeah, the day goes by pretty fast. Yes, some rituals chanting, walking, meditation.
Speaker 1:How much time of the day is spent in mindfulness or meditation.
Speaker 2:It was encouraged to do it pretty much on a regular basis for the rest of the day, but chanting, or memorizing chanting, was a big part of that too. So I would say 60, 70% of the day is part of the mindfulness practice.
Speaker 1:And what did that practice, that ritual look like? Did they just give you literature, Say read this. Or do they give guidance in terms of the meaning behind it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I might be misremembering or maybe I don't remember it clearly, but there are some chants which are also Buddhist discourses that we had to memorize, which are specifically for novice monks. So when you memorize that, you're also given or contemplate on the meaning of those And there are specific instructions, which is like the Four Noble Truths or Eightfold Path were already in the chant. So you're supposed to meditate on those recite and follow that instruction while you're chanting. So it has all the instructions embedded in it in a way.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But I mean, yeah, honestly, i was so young, so everything was just, yeah, everything was very surreal, but also very refreshing at the same time. So, yeah, i'm super grateful for that kind of memory and the experience. But, yeah, the rest of the summer went by pretty fast.
Speaker 1:What were some of the most whether they were profound lessons or experiences you had during this monkhood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the simplicity. This is too much of maybe a wormhole, that's probably too deep, but it made me realize that there's so many things that we don't need right, like, if I think about my life in the United States and if I compare that if I were to be still living in the village as a monk, there's so many things that I'm consuming that is not needed but it is expected. So for me that's like a profound experience. I'm not like asking everybody to live like a monk because that will like save so much energy and resources in the world because, i don't know, i survive.
Speaker 2:People survive that way by simplifying things, and that to me I'm not like trying to go back to the lifestyle, but it's like a good reference point whenever I complain about life, that am I really suffering here right now? What am I even complaining about? Because there are other people who are living and I was able to survive through that. So that to me is like a powerful reference point that, first of all, one meal a day enough. Second of all, no electricity needed, no social media, ipad or iPhone needed. You know, no cars I mean there are like cows, carts, horse carts in the village and you know, no shoes needed, maybe not even sandals, no AC stuff like that. So it was a very simple, simple life.
Speaker 1:I'm absorbing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the other thing too is like the power of the mind, like our mind is always there, but then it can be occupied with worries, anxieties, things that we're supposed to do. But that monkhood experience give me that glimpse of how empty the mind can be and how powerful it can be when it's empty, empty, as in like, you give space to that and simplicity does that. When my life was simple like that, my mind was fast in a way. But then when I'm living like a really busy life, worried about deadlines and bills and expenses and children, like my mind is sucked in or shrink in a way, and but at the same time that's also what I was trying to say is that even as a layman, i have access to it. If I stay committed to a particular practice or a particular routine, our mind is capable of that emptiness.
Speaker 1:And we'll get to that about what is your routine now in the States. I find it very interesting. You're 12 years old, having this experience right before this age of teenage years. How do you feel this experience? months in this monastery in Burma? How did it affect your teenage years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i don't know, i felt I mean, yeah, it was a powerful experience, but also I live in the city, so it kind of like faded out eventually because I had entertainment and friends and like city life So, but it was like embedded and hidden somewhere that was always available. So but yeah, i guess I process it all in that moment but like as best as I could, but it got unpacked much later. Yeah but, like as I was saying earlier, it just give me a glimpse of what I was capable of, in a way.
Speaker 1:You weren't there for a summer camp. You were there for a significant amount of time during the summer. At any point was there that level of defiance, resistance, teenage angst? Did that happen?
Speaker 2:Internally, yeah, but I was a pretty, yeah, i think those. I had some rebellious nature later in my teenage years, but back then I was still a pretty obedient, kind of quiet, yeah, docile, kind of young.
Speaker 1:Did you see any of that?
Speaker 2:In my monk experience defiance, oh, in other people, you mean, i didn't. Yeah, surprisingly. Yeah, because I learned a lot from my, i guess, buddhist Navin friends. It was kind of inspiring. I felt really I don't know if empathy is the right word, but like they've never lived a layman life and they were just so tamed in a way, you know, following the precepts and the monkhood, and they look so peaceful and they were just like 10 or something.
Speaker 1:Well, i did call you a master of Zen and you left. So I can't imagine what they were experiencing and what you felt from them. So I can relate in that sense. You know, what did you think about the people? that choice? there was a choice. They chose not to give up this monkhood. They words right, what do they mean? But you went from is it monkhood? novice monk to monk. What is the trajectory? that way, as me as a Westerner, can understand the I don't know if you say progression or titles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Kouyin is the novice when you do it in the teenage years. And then there's also the I guess Yaha or I think it originates from Arahan or Rahan where you enter monkhood but like as an adult. So it is defined by the age. But I think when you are already in the Buddhist monkhood order, i think you just enter into the adulthood monkhood based on the years while you're already in it. Because if I were to enter monkhood, i don't know if you can skip it, but like if you do that past 21 or 18, you go through a different procedure, not like a teenage monkhood novice experience.
Speaker 2:So yeah, i mean things are quite structured, like I don't know if things are written down necessarily, but like everything's already ordered, which I also respect because people already know that. That's what I appreciate about Burmese culture, especially those people in the village. They have like the oral or photographic memory of what is supposed to be done. There's no question, and they already know it And there's something very powerful about that And you can even see that more in the monkhood how they function. You know there's already a reason for things and they already know it.
Speaker 1:There's been this monkhood in these monasteries that have been going back for thousands of years. It doesn't seem to be a lot of change in terms of that monkhood with monasteries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there was definitely more harmony between yeah, there was just harmony period, you know, with nature, with things, with my own mind, and, yeah, i'm glad, while I'm recalling these memories and I like all the questions you're asking, i hope this has been useful for the listeners too, because this is a good place to take a moment And if I'm listening to this, i imagine you would have, because I do and I'm trying to determine what questions I asked, and there's so many questions that you know, i just don't know.
Speaker 1:So please send us and check the episode, send us an email If there's a follow-up question that you like us to share and answer in the next episode. By all means, give us an email or reach out to us on Facebook. Feel free to ask us all a question We'd be glad to answer in the next episode, because, i mean, this is, i think, a world that's new to a lot of us Westerners And to me. I'm so intrigued and I'm learning a lot.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I consider myself as a lifelong student as well, you know. so, for me, that's also what I appreciate about what we're doing, and what I do at Recovery Collective is that I'm not a Buddhist monk right now, but that's my backbone. So, like, i learn a lot from that experience and I want to interpret, or let it to be interpreted, with the people from here, because it's just like a sea that is ready to be sprouted in a way. you know. So, yeah, i'm one of the students too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, were there any challenges? You weren't defiant, you weren't an angsty teen. Where were the challenges in this experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's kind of a deep question. Maybe I should probably save it for a therapy session because, yeah, if I look back, there were some like mood related or kind of identity crisis moments as well, you know, or mental health related during that period, because it was quite therapeutic but also very all over the place. in a way, i rely a lot on the structure, but there are also some moments where I'm like I miss my you know TV, or I miss my video game What am I doing? Because it's just so quiet and empty. but also there are some moments where I'm like, oh, this is it. You know, this is very peaceful. So I guess the challenge would have been just like adjusting to a different lifestyle but also withdrawing from sensual inputs that I was so used to. So that was like a challenge which, yeah, i guess it kind of unfold later in my years, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, go from this structure routine that took out a lot of distraction and sounds like it led to simplicity and serenity in a lot of ways with your mind and the other monks, and even the town and nature, like you always to me, always articulate, whether it's the mosquitoes or the animals or the elephants that you give this very visual, that you get to really connect with these things. But there's a it gives the ability. From my learning, a lot of these cravings are minimal, a lot of these desires are put in a place where you don't have to be too tempted. Hey, there's a soccer ball. You're a kid? Yeah, we're going to play soccer, but in some ways the monastery sets up the conditions for I'm not going to say easier, but a structured routine to reach this level of peace and simplicity in the mind and the spirit potentially Would you agree?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Yeah. So let's talk about your transition out of the monastery. Is there a ritual that happens for you to go from? and I'll say it this way is there an indoctrination where you might see churches or you might see things in the West that say, no, stay here, don't leave? Some people have really bad experiences and they go to therapy for that. Was there any? was there any pull for you to stay, not a novice monk, but to become a Buddhist monk?
Speaker 2:No, not really No, because that was a whole intention just to do it temporarily. And also there is a timeline for those kind of years as a teenager in Burma that there is like an academic year that you have to return to, so it was just like part of the timeline, so there was no pull of that. And yeah, honestly, i don't remember that period very well. It just like faded out, like I said, quite easily because I was already back in the city and back into the rhythm of things.
Speaker 1:With cravings and desire.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe I overcompensated when I got back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Are there any other traditions you'd like to tell us about when it comes to your experience in the monkhood?
Speaker 2:I mean this is probably very personal And I was talking to my old mentor about that too that maybe it has to do with calling a Burma and Burmese as well that, like seeing the color of the ropes of the monk and then hearing the chant like it, strikes a very unique chord with me. I don't know if it comes from growing up in Burma or from that monkhood experience, like whenever I have like a very special tender place in my heart for those kind of things. So for me that's also my weapon to my strength Whenever I go through something difficult. That's why, like, buddhism and Buddhist practice has been something that I always go back to, because that's the only thing that I've been true to from a young age. So it comes from that experience And so, yeah, that's the tradition that I always associate with, like the color of the ropes, the monk, and then the tradition, the sutras, the chanting. There's something very loving and caring and powerful about that, like a support that I can always rely on. It's got my back in a way.
Speaker 1:When you left the monastery, you got back into being a kid, a teenager, and the hustle of being a teen in the city Did the like you say the sutras, the meditation, the chants did it ever leave you? Because it's so apparent to me that it's such a core belief that you have and practice that you do. Now I'm looking at a couple books in front of me that he has right in front of him, as well as some other things that he created for his, things that he reads and chants, some of them that I get to listen to and I get to be present with and, very fortunate, before we do our episodes, our podcast episodes. Did that dissipate at some point? And maybe the follow-up question is when did it become so strong again in your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, as you know and as some listeners know too, that, yeah, i struggle with addiction, alcoholism and everything. So, yeah, they disappear during those days, but I could still grasp on things that were still available to my limited mind back then, so they never really left me. But at the same time, there was like a conflict within me that these are the things that has been true for me and that I've experienced, but I don't have access to it because of these unwise, unskillful actions that I've been taking. So it was very frustrating, which actually caused me to use more and drink more, because I was like that perpetuating disappointment in myself, you know.
Speaker 2:But the deepening happened, yeah, like I mean, as I mentioned before too, i got sober through a 12-step fellowship and that program really helped me in terms of staying, going back to the spirituality, and then Buddhism became even more available. I was like, oh, these are already available to me, you know. So now I do have a very structure, clear practice you know that I do which means to me a lot more. Maybe it's because of life experience and challenges, and also I had that period in my life where I studied Buddhist philosophy too, which were more academic, so like things, which is all coming together And I'm pretty happy and content with where I am, with all these background and practices and everything. Also, the translation is being available, and then the quote-unquote American Buddhism Buddhism that is available in the West is also a great resource for me too.
Speaker 1:Similar to the monastery, where the conditions were set up. It sounds like you got rid of the obsession, the cravings, even the lust for alcohol, and when that was gone, that was a time in your life where your Buddhist practice picked up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so karma, or actions, is a key in Buddhism. That's where the confidence came back that there is so much power in these five precepts, which also the opposite is also true when I'm violating them. My sense of self, my confidence, my identity, it just violated.
Speaker 2:So for me, these things became more available. When I have this solid precept that has been given to me through staying sober, it's just like a really good ground to stand on, and that's also something that I can say confidently that I haven't had a drink or a drug since that day, and that, to me, is like a powerful weapon in a way.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's clear, but how has your experience as a Buddhist monk and Myanmar, burma how has that influenced your perspective as a meditation slash, life slash recovery coach to those that you help? To me, i see it as it's just string throughout your whole principles that you help people, but how would you describe it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a lot of parallel And I've used this term before too about the purity of the mind, because in the 12th step there's a step that's something about being restored to sanity. So that is, to me, is how I kind of like point towards to people with the fact that there's something already available within you. It's more about uncovering and going back to it, kind of like a higher soft thing. So that, to me, is a parallel that I see. It doesn't matter which culture you're in, which there is that spiritual experience that we've had at some point in our life And we just have to dig deep into it and then make that available again. You know because that's what I've seen with people that I've helped that that there's that one moment in their life where spirituality comes out And it's just a way of like resuming that, reconnecting with that, and you're unstoppable once that discover.
Speaker 1:And it sounds like the, the sutras, the sutras, the dharmas, the precepts. Help to you unleash that.
Speaker 2:For my own personal practice. Yeah, yeah, it's hard to put them into words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i was going to ask you to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I like, yeah, I'm really happy with the community that I'm in. There are just so many good people And like, yeah, the terms just make sense. And even like with my mother too, when I went back to Burma and then, you know, part of the 12 step is making amends And I told her about the fellowship that I was in and everything just made sense to her. You know, i don't even need to explain, which was really reassuring, that any kind of spiritual principles, if it's the true spiritual principle, it complements, it is in harmony with everything else you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, on that note, you know, the term that I hear a lot in our community is that if there is somebody who's relapsing, you know you can help them, but it's all about the relationship that he has with his own higher power, which to me, is like the best spiritual principle, because that's what it all comes down to Like people that I'm helping, people that we're helping, we're just paving the way, but it all comes down to them finding their true self within. You know, and that to me, goes so well with the concept of karma as well that even with my kids, too, i can help them my best, but it's all up to them to find their true self. So that to me is quite empowering and also taking responsibility for your own happiness, in a way.
Speaker 1:Here at the Recovery Collective we talked quite a bit in terms of what do we call you? And we've settled on Ateetavada Theravada Buddhist practitioner. What does that mean to you?
Speaker 2:It's still unfolding. I would say Yeah, it sounds true to me in a way of like this is who I have been, this is who I am, but making tools available out of the experience to other people that can help them to overcome challenges. you know.
Speaker 1:And by calling yourself a Ateetavada Buddhist practitioner, using those principles. To us it made sense. That is, and can be, a life coach. That is, and can be, a recovery coach. That is, and can be, a meditation and mindfulness coach. To us, i feel like it wrapped the essence of what you're trying to do and how you're trying to help people. Any other insights you want to give with your Buddhist monkhood before we wrap up today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think that covers it all. I think I've talked enough, but I'm curious about the emails and the questions that people may have, because we can do more episodes or pick on a particular topic and then draw out of the experience and make it more accessible and interpretable, in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was awesome. This was fun. I learned a lot, so I was able to delve in. For personal reasons And to me, i'm sure when I listen to this back I'll have more questions on top. So please, listeners out there, give us an email, a message on our website or Facebook page. That's all on the listening notes. Be glad to answer it and share it with others in this community that we're building. So thanks for being a part of it. As we conclude, i reflect on just the profound teachings of Ateetavada Buddhism and how they can inspire us to cultivate mindfulness, compassion and wisdom in our own lives, ultimately contributing to our well-being and the well-being of others. If you found this exploration beneficial, may these teachings continue to guide you on your journey of spiritual exploration and awakening. With that, i'm Luke Devooy.
Speaker 2:This is all.
Speaker 1:And we'll see you next time. Thanks,