A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
Unlocking Personal Transformation: Harold Greene and the Power of the 12 Step Principles
Discover how the power of the 12-Step Program principles can transform lives and guide individuals toward a path of health, happiness, and personal fulfillment in our enlightening conversation with Harold Greene. We can apply these principles even if we don't struggle with addiction. Their wisdom can guide us on a transformative journey, helping us uncover our true potential, connect with others on a deeper level, and ultimately live a more fulfilling and purpose-driven life. Harold shares his experience teaching these principles at Christopher Place Training Academy, providing tools for ex-offenders to reintegrate into society.
Together, we explore the importance of changing how we think to change how we act and how these universal principles can foster resilience and personal growth, no matter your situation! Harold discusses the value of self-reflection, willingness, and service, as well as the significance of charity, love, and spiritual growth within the principles of the 12-Step Program. Learn how these principles can lead to profound transformations and help individuals overcome past obstacles. Join us as we dive into inspiring stories and insights from Harold Greene.
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Okay, welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist in You. Brought to you by the Recovery Collective in Annapolis, maryland, it's a podcast where we journey through self-discovery and collective growth. I'm your co-host, luke Duboy, a therapist passionate about all things health and wellness, and joining me on this enlightening adventure is my co-host, who's as mindful about meditation as he is of suffering Zong-A.
Speaker 1:Hey, luke, good to be here again, hello everyone, And Zong-A is a wise and compassionate Buddhist and practitioner and life coach. Together, we'll explore the intersections of psychology, spirituality, health and wellness, offering practical insights along the way. Thanks for tuning in and joining our collective community. Please communicate with us and other listeners on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube. Links are provided in the episode notes. We're here to provide you with valuable tools, perspectives. That has the ability to potentially transform your life. If you find our podcast helpful, we greatly appreciate your support. We like to call it our handshake agreement. We provide you with some deep dives and valuable information, and you can leave a like, comment, subscribe and, most importantly, share our podcast with others. If you'd like to monetarily thank us, we do have that option as well, and you can just click the donate button. Remember, it's through our collective efforts that we can uncover solutions to all things health and wellness. So it's all. Today We've got a pretty interesting topic and we're looking at the 12-Step Principles and Values Behind the Principles to Outside 12-Step Recovery.
Speaker 1:The 12-Step Program originated from Alcoholics Anonymous, a fellowship founded in 1935 by Bill Wilson and Dr Bob Smith. It was developed as a method to overcome alcohol addiction and sheeps of variety. 12-steps provide a structured approach to self-reflection, personal growth and spiritual development. Over time, the 12-Steps gain recognition of their effectiveness in helping individuals recover from addiction and transform their lives. The principles embedded in the 12-Step, such as honesty, humility, willingness and service, resonated with people facing various challenges beyond problems pertaining to alcohol use. As a therapist and a certified alcohol and drug counselor, I see the beauty of the 12-Steps really lies in their universal applicability. The principles and practice can be adapted to address various issues, including personal development, some aspects of mental health relationships, and even help determine your life choices. Many individuals, organizations and certainly treatment facilities have recognized these values and these principles and integrate them into their programs. We want to shed light on the power of these principles beyond their original context and highlight how they can support you By featuring our expert guest today.
Speaker 1:He'll share how he brings these principles to different settings and populations. So, whether you're familiar with the 12-Steps or are entirely new to this transformative framework, get ready to be inspired and captivated by the stories and insights that lie ahead. We invite you to open your mind to the possibilities as we explore the incredible ways the 12-Steps and principles shape lives, foster resilience, guide individuals towards the path of health, happiness and personal fulfillment. Stay tuned for an enlightening conversation with Harold Green. Harold, thank you so much for doing this today. We're truly honored to have you here as our guest. It's my privilege. Yeah, so I know we're bringing you on in terms of how 12-Step principles and values can help And, out of respect, we're not going to go in depth of the Greater Baltimore Area Training Academy, where you provide these services, But tell us a little bit about that What you do at this Training Academy in the Greater Baltimore Area and how it's making a difference in the lives of many. We're excited here to learn more about your teachings.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Luke, And it might be useful for me to just simply read an opening for the Christopher Place Employment and Training Academy. Aware that all human families are entitled to having their basic needs met, we make a commitment to journey with the poor and homeless men as they reclaim a life of self-determination and stability. We invite men to engage in a process of change that moves men from being homeless to permanent, stable living, that prepares men to obtain and maintain full employment and that empowers men to live a life free of drugs. Christopher Place is an employment agency with a residential component that supports addiction recovery.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and you've been working with this Academy for how many years now?
Speaker 3:It'll get to be 23, 24 years. I started 2005 at the old facility and they moved into a brand new facility over on Green Mountain Avenue in Baltimore.
Speaker 1:And these are men and women or men, no only men Men Academy that are helping them come from an incarcerated lockup facility.
Speaker 3:To the quote unquote life outside Well let me go back and explain a little bit. The men that come to Christopher Place have recently been expunged from incarceration. They go through a six month application process and at the end of that process they come to Christopher Place. They're called open and primary members. at that time They go through a 16 week program and they move into the next phase, which is interviewing and resume writing and moving in. at the same time, While they're going through my process, they are also given opportunities to meet with other facilitators. They learn interviewing skills, they learn resume writing, they learn speaking correctly, interviewing and those kinds of things. So there's a full open program for all the men that come through in the beginning. It goes in phases and it lasts approximately 15 weeks.
Speaker 1:And what would you consider your part of the program? Obviously, writing skills, resume building and things like that. You know what that is, but what would you consider your piece of the pie for them?
Speaker 3:Let me see I can put this in a context that, because I could go on for the rest of the month talking about what I do, but essentially what I do is explain to men that life doesn't change because you're free. Life will continue to come at you hard and fast if you haven't learned how to change the way you think. Essentially, that's what I do. I give men tools so that they can use them in the process of changing the way they think. I explain to them that we are our experience. That's what we are. We are our experience. That is whatever had been previously in our lives is who we become To change. That is a difficult process and it's not simple. What you need is some fundamental tools that can allow you to open your mind and accept new ideas.
Speaker 1:Can I imagine that's what you're teaching them? some fundamental tools to do that?
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And before we go down that fun path and I'm looking forward to go down how did you get involved in this process? There's people that do resume building. There's people that do all forms of launching back into society and life skills. How did people go? obviously, this part is valuable. How did you get involved?
Speaker 3:Well, i've been a teacher for most of my adult life. I taught in the military, i taught history in high school and now I'm teaching at a training school for ex-offenders. The idea that I have some fundamental ideas that I can provide to anyone, using the same principles that they use in recovery programs, allow those principles to be used to help change the way people think and how they act. Those principles are not new. The principles that we use are as old as time itself. The reason they work are because they are true principles And if we apply them consistently, we can use those same ideas to help us change the way we think, and that's essentially what we do.
Speaker 1:And your program? is this a 16-week program? How long do you teach this with these ex-offenders?
Speaker 3:Well, I started in 19,. no, I started in 2005. I retired. I was director of housing for the city of Annapolis. I have a dear friend of mine who is a priest that has been working with Christopher Place for a very long time. His name is Father Joe Madonna, And when I left the city he approached me and asked if I would be willing to participate in a program that helps train and give new opportunities to men coming back out from prison.
Speaker 1:Is there an average length people are locked up before they see you? Is it months? Is it years?
Speaker 3:Some of them have been for years. I don't know the exact number of those That's not general information, But many of them I can say reasonably well that they have been in sight of Earth, or some have been in sight for quite a few years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very powerful way of freeing people, which to me means that inner life reflects the outer reality. So if I'm just fixing what's in the outer and not change my inner life, same problem is going to occur. So that's what I'm hearing. What you're saying, that when we challenge our thinking is to change my personal reality and the outer reality catches up. But I do want to ask too maybe this can, maybe Luke can, direct us to is that, speaking out of my own personal experience and I want to hear your experience helping these people is that the spiritual principles are great, but then there needs to be also a common language where those spiritual principles are receptive? you know, because I heard these first principles but I wasn't ready And whatever was being communicated to me, i wasn't receptive. So in this case, are there tools that are useful in terms of speaking to them directly, where they become receptive to these principles?
Speaker 3:Well, when the men come into date, they go through a primary beginner's process in the beginning, and that's where they understand exactly what they're there for, what they can expect to happen, and encourage them to begin to use the simple ideas that we provide for them to change their lives when they leave. For the most part, the men that come there have not had experience. Some do have had some experience with recovery programs and 12-step programs, but many of them do not, and so we need to start off by explaining that what it is and how it works, and it's something I mentioned earlier. We are our experience. It's one of the things I really try to get across.
Speaker 3:We are our experience, and if you have had a good experience during your life, you usually are successful and move forward. But if you have had bad experiences, they become your experience and you continue to use those and they become depressed. So the first thing we need to do is look at those experiences. Look at those experiences and be prepared. Once you understand what they are and how they've held you back, we can give you some tools to help you motivate yourself to change the way you think.
Speaker 1:What's the buy-in? Because I think as a therapist and as a meditation and life coach. Most of the time we get people that are motivated to see us, but every once in a while we don't. We get to. I imagine you do too. We get to build the rapport and that connection And you're saying it sounds like you're saying you do that by the powers and our experiences.
Speaker 1:I imagine there's a percentage of people that wait a minute. What are we learning in this class, Like? I hear what you're saying, but what am I getting out of this? What am I getting out of therapy? What am I getting out of working with, all with?
Speaker 3:I hear you. It's not that simple. Let me give you an idea of what happens when they come in and we give them a handout that tells them exactly what we're going to do. The course of instruction will act as an adjunct to the GED Literal Adult Basic Education Program provided by this Academy to enhance basic living skills and create an atmosphere for re-entry into the community. The course of study will develop a fundamental ability by the individuals to recognize and moderate past behaviors. This will include instruction and basic life skills. The object will be seamlessly transitioned into the final Academy objective, the ability to live in a real world.
Speaker 3:Essentially, that's what we tell them when they come in. This is a course of study that will help you not make the same mistakes you made before you came in, but give you an opportunity to look at those mistakes and make a decision to motivate yourself not to make the same mistakes again. Now, that's not easy. Most people have a set process, the way they analyze and understand whatever, and trying to change that from the time they were born until the time we get them is not an easy task. What has to be understood by not only the men, but by the, but by the teachers Teaching is that it's not simple, but it's not complicated.
Speaker 1:So there's these fundamental living skills that you're teaching them, and you're using this common denominator that we call the principles of the 12 steps. So expand a little bit more on how you do that. What is your teaching?
Speaker 3:style. Sure, that's where I come in. The principles that we talk about are not new. The principles that we use at Christopher Place and almost in every facility that addresses problems. Then, as a matter of fact, there's something like 300 programs that use 12 principles. There's everything. There's a program that treats people who have dislike for horses. So there are a lot of different 12 step programs that use these basic principles, and let me just read off what they are Acceptance Acceptance One of the most valuable principles that we learn.
Speaker 3:Faith Faith, and it has nothing to do with religion. If you have a practice of religion, that's fine, but we're talking about the power within you and the idea that you have a power within you that you can use to access the change in your life. Surrender and trust. It means that you have to give up the old ways and trust a new set of principles that can help you change your life. Courage, which is almost understandable. You have to want to do it and then have the strength and conviction to do it. Willingness is probably one of the most important. If you aren't willing and be able to motivate yourself, nothing happens.
Speaker 3:Humility Humility is a very curious adjective. Humility, in the context that we use. It means that you know who you are. Humility means you know oneself, and that's what we're starting for to help you understand who you really are. I like to think of what we do with these principles.
Speaker 3:I use the analogy of a puzzle. Everybody, as a child, has done puzzles one way or another, and the idea of a puzzle is to connect the dots. You connect the dots in the puzzle and when you've connected all the dots, there's a picture, and that picture is you, and the 12 steps are the dots. You connect the dots one by one in a process and at the end of that process you know who you are. And that's humility. And there's a variety of other concepts that we use, but they're down the road a little bit. In the beginning. We have to stress forgiveness, freedom, perseverance, patience and then, finally, charity and love. Those are simple ideas that most people don't use. They know them, they've heard of them, but to apply them into your life on a consistent basis is very difficult. What we try to do is encourage the men to take these ideas and use them consistently. We give them the opportunity to ask questions, be skeptical, but understand that the process that we're providing for them works and it has for a very long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are really powerful principles and concepts, and I want to go back to what you have begun with about experience.
Speaker 2:There's a concept in our meditation and in our tradition about direct experience That when I'm meditating, a teacher or a meditation teacher can be like this is how it feels like to breathe in, breathe out or give all these techniques, but they don't mean anything until I have a direct experience of oh, this is how it feels like to breathe in, or this is how it feels like you have a pause between in-breath and the out-breath, and then that really uncovers so many things.
Speaker 2:Because I think about experiences also, that I might see Luke, and Luke who I see is actually through my own eyes. It's actually my reality, although Luke doesn't exist outside of me. So, in a way, my senses create my reality. So it's actually good news and bad news, but it's mostly good news because if I don't like my reality, i can change how I interpret or how I see the world, in a way. So it makes me think of that, as you're sharing, and also these principles too, about the spirituality since you were talking about to remember who we truly are, is that some people think that spirituality is like adding more, but it's actually uncovering the layers that we have built up over the years. So that really strikes core. With me about to discover who we truly are is not to add more, but to get rid of things that are blocking the ways.
Speaker 3:Very good, exactly, you got it. You've been paying attention. One of the things that we find particularly useful is we have a simple saying if you change the way you think, you change the way you act. And we provide process of meditation. Now you can go and Google a hundred different ways to meditate. There's many ways to meditate, as there are people.
Speaker 3:I learned to meditate from a Buddhist priest named Lao Su And he said think about the most happiest, the most enjoyable time you have ever had in your life. Ever, michael, had to go back to when you were a little kid to find that happy, joyful time and place. But he said practice, practice going to close your eyes and go back to that time and place. Do it over and over and over again until your mind relaxes and opens.
Speaker 3:When I was a little kid, my family has a house in South Carolina right on the back creek. We used to go skintubing back there, but they have the largest catfish you have ever seen in that creek. I caught a catfish when I was a little kid, almost as big as I am, but I could go to that creek, sit on a log with a fishing pole and nobody could find me. It was the quietest, peacefulest place I've ever been to. Well, i can pull up to a traffic light, close my eyes and I'm sitting on that log with a fishing pole and my mind opens, and I encourage people to do that. Now, that may not work for you it works for me, fine, but you can find an idea that will allow you to open your mind. The only condition is that you have to want to do it, willingness to do it, and we encourage the men to begin with that That's where we start Open your mind so that you can allow new ideas to come in, because that's what you're going to get.
Speaker 1:And your experience, your example just resonates with me of OK, we're open our mind of willingness, but, man, there's acceptance that Harold just had a good experience, The fundamental experience in his childhood. That was good and he can go there anytime he wants. Ok, I can be open minded to that. He's starting me off with there? OK, I'm listening.
Speaker 3:That's good, and the only condition for that is consistency They talk about. We have many, many different ways to meditate. As I said before, you can go online and find 100 different ways to do it. The whole point of meditation is to open your mind. Most people think you go to lay down and go to sleep or something. When you meditate in you. The idea is to open your mind, allow new ideas to come in. That's what meditation is all about. It's not about trying to promote or invent new ideas. It's to be able to accept ideas that will be in your best interest, and if you can do that, the meditation works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if it's OK, i'd like to focus on that idea of that concept of willingness I think it will be beneficial to the listeners and for myself as well And also hear your expertise on that, based on people that you've helped with, because for me it's been really interesting, especially for a 12-star community which I joined as well. Willingness came out of pain. I couldn't stand it anymore. For me, that's OK, but for people who don't really hit any kind of bottom, willingness is not something that can be created. So how do you uncover that? Because that motivation, i can want something. But if I'm wanting that for someone else or if it's superficial, when things get tough I'll be like, actually I don't really want it, it's not that important. But then if it's a decision within me that I really want it, the willingness is there. Nothing can stop me. So I feel like that is a really key principle for many people who wanted to change, but then the willingness is not really there. How can we help for that?
Speaker 3:Zahya, you're absolutely correct, and that's really what the problem is. Most people don't even have never experienced that. They have no idea what you're talking about. When you talk to you, begin to talk about willingness to change the way you think They look at you like you're nuts. Willingness to change means that you can focus on what happened to you, look inside yourself.
Speaker 3:In some 12-step programs we call it take an inventory. Take an inventory By that we mean look at the things that have been good in your life and have helped you promote, and look at the things that have created problems in your life. Write them down, look at them And then become willing to be rid of them. And then they say, well, how do you do that? Well, the way you do that is what we just talked about. You meditate, you open your mind and allow those ideas to go away and allow new ideas to come in.
Speaker 3:Now nobody's going to come down and wave a magic wand and you go skipping through the two levels. It's not going to happen If you're going to change and become willing and motivate yourself to do it. It takes time, it takes effort And it takes wanting to do it, willingness to do it, willingness to change. If you're not willing, might as well go home. If you're willing to change, the processes there for you to do and what we tried to encourage the men to do is to stop Don't try and grab it all at once. Take it step by step and understand that willingness comes from motivation, determination that you want to change and not go back to the life you had before you came here.
Speaker 1:It sounds like that principle of willingness allows this open-mindedness and ability to make, hopefully, not just a perspective change but an actual change that can lead to more healthy decisions and way of life.
Speaker 3:That's the idea, that's the goal, that's the objective And it's important to understand. For me to make it clear that it's not going to happen all at once. It takes time. It took a long time to get the way you are now. It's going to take time to undo that, and the first thing that in order to make that happen, is to look at it. Look at it. Take an inventory. Take an inventory.
Speaker 3:I like the way they do it in some programs. They'll say if you own a business and you are a good businessman, once a year at least you go back in your stock room. You look up on the shelf and you see some stock that had gone bad. You have to get rid of it, but you have a lot of stock that's still good and you can use. You can do it. Or a limiter is exactly the same thing. You've got some ideas that are kicking your butt for a long time. You need to look at that, be willing to accept what they are and then make a decision that you want to change. Then the principles come to effect and it's thought to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i heard you said it. The willingness is one of the principles, and then there's this level of acceptance that has to come with it. You've been working with this population for since 2006, i believe you said 2005.
Speaker 3:I started 2005. Every day since then In 2000,. What was it? When did the pandemic start? 2002, 2000. Brown and the other. In any event, they had to close the school. The school is where men come in and are in class and dormitories live in dormitories. When the virus hit, we couldn't allow strangers or other individuals to come in, so they shut the school down and they set up a virtual concept. That's what I'm doing now. I'm doing the classes on virtual or Zoom. It's not the same as being in the classroom with the men, because I can look at their faces and see if they understand what I'm saying. If they look blank, then I know I go back and do something else. But I do the same thing with the virtual. I make them stand up in front of the class and recite what I said.
Speaker 3:When I was a little kid, my father taught me how to read. I could read when I was five, six years old. He would take a book and he would point to a word And he'd say the word and then he'd tell me you say it. And we go through the whole book that way. He pointed a word and he said you say it. It was how I learned how to read, and I found that to be Exceptionally good for newcomers coming in that have not changed the way they Take an idea, take an idea that the power to change is not out there somewhere. You can do it yourself, but the first thing you have to know is what is it that you need to change?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, one important thing that I'm appreciating and learning from this conversation with you're saying, harold, is The power of like, paying attention. You know, bringing awareness, which is also what you're saying about the inventory is that I don't need to do a creative writing about what I'm gonna do in the future, but I look at what has already happened. You know and pay attention, and they're connecting the dots. I was thinking about the willingness to not to backtrack, backtrack, but I'm still on that idea of willingness and I don't know if I talk about my kids too much on this podcast. My kids are five and three and they're like my Yeah, so like they're like my spiritual teachers.
Speaker 2:You know, this goes back to that idea of going back to who we are originally without, before these layers and layers of protections and defense mechanism came about.
Speaker 2:So one immediate example This is a very small example, but it really struck, or would be about willingness is that you know, since the summer, my kids love going to the pool and my daughter loves going to the pool, and that was this one evening or one afternoon on a Sunday Where I mentioned to my daughter that we're going to the pool and I just saw it in her eyes that it was as if we're already at The pool, like there was no, you know, no pretension, no light, her openness and the willingness part.
Speaker 2:I was like I want to learn how to have that, you know, like because there is nothing, there is no doubt she trust me, that we're gonna be there, and there was this like complete willingness and openness that, oh, you know, she just it was as if she was already there, you know. So I just wanted to bring that up too, which is related to a quote that I've heard of too I think this is like an ancient warrior Chinese quote, well, which is that it is probably translated but that a battle, a battle is won before it is fought, you know, which means that everything is in the mind, you know. So, if I have already made up my mind to win the battle, because it's all in the mind, so a battle is won before it is actually fought.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and that's an old Buddha saying, and I think that It's true. It's absolutely true. You, you, you can change Your life in your mind. That's where it's gonna start. If you can separate what is useful and has been useful to you and Find a way to eliminate those characteristics that are not, you change the way you think And and so it's. It's like, it's like any other.
Speaker 3:I like to think of it as playing chess And chess. You make a move and then somebody makes a counter move. Make a move and somebody makes a counter move, but you have to look down the road to see, or at least try to Predict, what they're going to the next move is going to be, so that you can provide, or the least in your mind, a counter move and, and if you can use that kind of strategy, you can help yourself. Open your mind and listen. I Don't know if you know I Boxes. I have done it for a very long time. I did a lot of boxing when I was a kid. The first thing I tell a kid when I'm gonna try and teach him how to throw a left hook is Is nobody is born knowing how to throw a left hook. The first thing you need to do is learn to move. You learn to move and then you practice. The principles that we're talking about here are exactly the same There to move, you learn to move and then you practice. And that's how the change comes about.
Speaker 1:You got any Cassius Clay stories for us that you can tell?
Speaker 3:you Kind of cash is what I knew. Cash is clay. I mean, i knew Mohammed Ali when he was still cash is clay. Yeah, we used to go down to. He lived in, um, uh well, kentucky, um, trying to think of the town he was in. But yeah, yeah, i knew um, i had had a couple of gyms up in New York and he'd come down there from time to time. I know a lot of guys Paterson and Tyson and a whole bunch of them, guy named Riddick Boak, just come up to the gym. I went down to his gym and I used to work with him.
Speaker 1:Very neat. I could do a side segment on that as long as we wanted, but talking about the acceptance of the will and the willingness, the need to sidestep when we need to sidestep, you know 12 step literature. we call it character defects, we call it shortcomings, things that may prevent us from prevent potentially doing those things. You've been working with this population at least since 2006, 2005. What are some of the? I don't know, two people are the same but what are some characteristics or shortcomings you see in the population that you're working with, that you get to work, you get to use these other principles to help them remove these short comings or these character defects.
Speaker 3:Trying to accomplish. One of the really big things that I noticed with a lot of these guys is they try to get something done without doing any work. They think somehow somebody's going to wave a magic wand and what's going to happen is going to happen, and they go through life just continually expecting something to happen without putting any effort into it. And one of the things that I try and it's consistent, it's not like one or two of them, it's consistent. In these classes that comes in, we have one or two of them exactly that way.
Speaker 3:And what I try to get them to understand that if you're going to change, if you're going to change the way you think it has to come from inside. You have to want to do it and motivate yourself, unless you want to go back out exactly where you were when you came in, and I think that's gives them a kind of incentive to really begin to open the mind a little bit, hear a little bit of things. I think one of the greatest gifts we get in any foster program, or certainly in what I do, is to listen, learn how to listen carefully. Many people just don't know how to do that. They'll stand up there and listen while you you be talking to them and they'll be looking at you, waiting for you to stop talking so they can start. But if you can learn how to listen carefully to what people say, you learn very quickly.
Speaker 1:We don't want to talk after that. We want to make sure that we're listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i don't know if we're jumping ahead, but the other principle that you mentioned from the list is that concept of charity too. That's also what I like about the Tostae which seals the deal. In our tradition that's considered like generosity, which is in the giving, because the thing that blocks me from being willing, the thing that blocks me to make change, is also my selfishness, which is really related to attachment. I'm really attached, whether I know it or not, to my present self or to my old self, and that comes from selfishness. But then when I make it about other people, it really opens up, channel and then create more connections and where you don't feel like you're this terminally unique That's also another term that I learned in 12 steps terminally unique person in the whole world. So I want to hear more about that from your experience too, about giving service, charity, generosity.
Speaker 3:It is one of the strangest concepts that I have ever heard. If somebody told me before I came into AA that if you did something for someone and not expect anything in return that you get better, It would have been the dumbest idea I've ever heard. And you do something for somebody, you expect to get something back. But we learn that when you provide a service to anyone, it doesn't matter whether they enter out of your recovery. but when you provide a service to someone, whether you know it or not, you get better. And if you do it consistently, you grow what we call in spirit. You grow in spirit, One of the things that we teach in charity and love.
Speaker 3:charity simply means giving something away and not expect anything back from it. Love means to do it with no acceptance. So if you have service and have no expectation, you get better. So charity and love really means growing spiritually. Now some people that that you notice is number 12, because it takes a while for you to get there and understand that concept. It did for me. But if you follow these ideas as you walk through this process, by the time you get to that point you understand what they're saying. You understand that charity and love is what we call service. It tells us, in one of the steps, that we have. We ask this power that's within us to remove those defects of character that stands in the way of our usefulness and then help us go out from here and be useful. That's what charity and love is all about.
Speaker 1:Can you talk more on that love and service? I mean the way you shared it there either is or isn't. Love Us. As humans, we find a really good way to make love conditional, but there is no such thing as conditional. That's the human aspect of trying to control, or you can probably articulate it better than I can. There either is or isn't right. How would you describe more of it?
Speaker 3:Well, most people who haven't had any experience really understanding what love really is to think love is sex. That's love. Everybody gets that. But what we're talking about is to have a compassion and understanding for other people's weakness and accept it. accept other people's weaknesses, be there for somebody when they make mistakes, not criticize them, but help them understand how to change it. And love means to help somebody, to do something for somebody, to be of service to somebody. You can use any kind of adjective that you need, but the idea is to do something for somebody and not expect anything. That's how you open your mind and grow.
Speaker 1:I think that type of service gives us an ability to get outside of ourselves in a very healthy way. A lot of people can get outside of themselves, ironically, with sex It's a quick fix physical or work, or electronics, gaming, you name it. But man, this type of service and helping someone without any expectation anything in return, we get this connection and this love that is we get outside of ourselves in the most beautiful way possible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I have a lecture that I do and it's called the management of change, and what I do is I walk through some ideas of what change is and how it works, if I can find what I probably can. Essentially, what we're talking about is being made learning, and teaching is the idea of taking an idea from my head and put it into your head. That's what teaching is really all about. Now, we do that through communication. We communicate so that how you communicate will determine whether or not your idea can go to somebody else's head, if how you communicate that idea to them. And in order for that to happen, the person that you're communicating with has to understand what you're saying. So the change in changing someone's ideas and the experiences means that you have to put an idea to them that they understand and find useful, and that's what communication is and that's how change happens. It also has a lot to do with how you communicate, the dialogue that you use. How do you present an idea so somebody can accept it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it goes back to what you were saying about listening. You know that whatever I'm saying, if the other person is not listening, not paying attention, change is not going to occur.
Speaker 3:How flowery and how effective what I'm, saying You're actually right, no matter what you're going to say, if you're not listening to you, it's not going to happen. I have had. My experience is what people that come in who are full grown and have had a lot of experience have done things in their life, good and bad. They develop an experience and that experience determines who they are and how they act, and that's almost impossible to turn around. You first have to have some kind of connection within yourself.
Speaker 3:We win in program. We call it God or power, whatever, it doesn't matter what you call it. We who are born with that incentive within ourselves to be great, to be good, to be prosperous And somewhere along the lines we go, depending on who we are. Our experience takes that away from us. But if you can replace it, if you can put that idea back into your mind because that's the only way it will work It's coming from you, not from out there somewhere If you can connect with the power within you. I like to think that some of my Native American friends have a word they call Natasha Naka. Natasha Naka means the connectedness. When Native Americans go to different parts of the country and they come together, they call Naka the connectedness, natasha Naka. If we can connect with that, if we connect with that power within us, we can do anything. And you can do it a lot of different ways prayer, meditation, a lot of different ways you can do it, but you connect with that power and then use it in a hard-nodes, practical way.
Speaker 1:I've been fortunate to work with a lot of people that are in recovery or trying to get sober And one of the things that I've noticed with a lot of clients or people in treatment facilities, a lot of them had a spiritual out, a lot of them did service, but one of the I think the common denominator that this is just my experience of it that all of them stopped doing One of them were very active in 12-step programs and had Sponzees. All of them stopped doing one thing and that was looking at themselves. Looking at them, they can get lost in someone else's service. When it comes to the population people that were incarcerated what was some of the things that when they're looking at themselves in your program, is it ego? What has prevented the healthy change that you will eventually make with a lot of the people?
Speaker 3:you work with. The first thing I have to do is to convince people that the change has to come from within The motivation to make yourself a different person. Nobody can do it. Nobody can go down and wave a magic wand. It's not going to happen. You have to motivate yourself, and what you can do with that is what we suggest early on Look at who you are. How did you get to where you are? What happened? What were the ideas, what were the things that happened in your life that made you wind up in jail? And it's consistent Consistent from the time you were born. Practically Those ideas and experiences made you who you are. And if you're going to turn that around, you're going to have to find a way to look inside yourself and then motivate yourself, and there's lots of different ways to do it.
Speaker 3:We talk about prayer and meditation. Prayer simply means talking to that power. I talk to Jesus. Jesus is my best friend. I often think that Jesus was one of us.
Speaker 3:Who else would turn water into wine? And you tell people cast your bread upon the water and it will be returned to you. He says it all the time Suffer the little children unto you. What is kingdom of God, we say that the newcomer is coming in And so if you can connect with something like that, i pray. I don't know why I wouldn't call it really pray. I talk to Jesus. I talk to him like I'm talking to you. Sometimes I argue with him What are you doing this? And? but it gives me the power within myself to make look at it and see who I am Now, if I can get that across to the people who are coming in and looking to go out in the community and be different from when they went in. They need to understand that if the change is going to come, they have to do it, and I'm not suggesting that it's easy. It takes time, it takes motivation, it takes understanding but, most important, it takes willingness.
Speaker 1:I think probably in the home stretch here, due to due to time that we have, where does unity and community fit in? We know where it fits in when it comes to 12 step fellowships It's unity. It's that community is, the fellowship is a big piece for the connectedness, yes, and through higher power and spirituality. How do you do that? and your teachings through the academy of that unity and support.
Speaker 3:What I suggest to the men when this is coming toward, when they're going into their next phase, what I suggest that they use go back, go into their community. You'll find in your community that there are many needs, but there are also many different kinds of people that help and work and do things in the community that most people don't even know about. If you could just go into a community center and help kids, go into a library and teach kids how to read, do something that will help lift up the person that you're helping. But it also gives you the sense of being of service, of doing something and not expect anything in return. That's spiritual growth. Now, a lot of people that they take spiritual growth to mean some kind of religion and it's not. Spirituality comes from within us. That's where it is. The spirit is right here, not out there somewhere. If you can accept that and use it, you can do something. What happens is you help somebody out there and at the same time you grow. Strange kind of concept I would have never believed if I hadn't come in here and saw it work, but now I know it's real. It's true, I've done it for a long time.
Speaker 3:Before I came to Christopher Place. I ran and developed public housing all over the country. I built and developed and did all kinds of public community things in different places. I was director of housing here in Annapolis for 10 years. One of the things that I found and if everywhere I went that if you got to the people and let them know you're doing something for them that's going to help them, they will work with you. We had probably some of the best communities that we had in public housing Simple ideas, honesty, truth, trust, faith, persistence, willingness simple principles.
Speaker 1:Do you have any success stories?
Speaker 3:Oh, lots, lots, lots. I'll give you a couple examples. We had a guy that wanted to be a doctor. He came out, he went over to Hopkins. I got him connected with Hopkins. He went through a training program as an intern first and they sent him to medical school. Now he's practicing. I know another guy that wanted to teach, another guy that wanted to drive trucks and they're all out doing it now. Another guy that's working in the community in the community center set it up. The new governor of Maryland is working with him. He's working with him.
Speaker 1:That's great. That's awesome. What do you think, Zo?
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i really enjoyed this. I don't know why, or the way you asked the question to Harold previous to the last about unity really reminds me to conclude the whole conversation about In Buddhism, the word that is translated from, we talk about truth, which is first, noble truth, second, noble truth. It comes from this word, tissa, which is a CCA, and the actual translation that has been translated is that something that always stays truthful, something that always stays faithful, which is also that something that never contradicts itself. So the way we're talking about principles is that, if I'm truly paying attention, the unity I see is something that never contradicts itself. It's always in harmony wherever I look at it. So that just got me thinking about unity. If I think about unity, it's something that is truthful, that it doesn't contradict itself, it stays united, it stays in harmony. So it makes me think of that, everything that we've been talking about, to just pay attention and do what's already in harmony.
Speaker 3:You nailed it It's harmony. Is what unity is Harmony? working together to build each other, stepping in and doing something, no matter where you are. Unity we have the same goals and objectives and we help each other do it. It's what unity really is. It's one of the reasons Bill Wilson made unity the first tradition. If we don't all stick together, we sure as hell fall apart.
Speaker 1:It started with Alcoholics Anonymous and there's Narconic Anonymous, chemical Dependency, we know. We've spread to Gamblers Anonymous over Eaters, sex Anonymous, and it goes on and on, on and on and on. Yeah, a reason for that We also have a lot of listeners that have never been locked up. We have listeners that don't have any issues with substance use or abuse. For the listener that may just have some depression or anxiety or past traumas, what would you tell, say to them, harold, when it comes to these principles that you could give out to those?
Speaker 3:The first thing I would say to someone who has never had any kind of experience with opening up themselves and looking at themselves is to start to look at who you are. Take some of these simple ideas. They're everywhere. You can go on Google and find them. Take those simple ideas and look at yourself. Look at yourself truly, Find someone that you trust and talk to them. Sharing is probably one of the most valuable changes that there is. Change and ask people that you trust. What do they think about you and what should you do? It takes courage to do that to one of our principles. It's not going to happen simply because you want to do it. It takes courage. But if you really want to become uplifted, if you really want to be able to do the naitashna ka, connect with that power. that's what you need to do. The power is not out there. You have it. You are born with it. What you need to do is how to connect.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Harold. I wish we had another hour. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, harold, for joining us. Thank you all for tuning in once again And, as always, please give us a like, a comment, a share And, as always, collectively we can find solutions to all things. Health and wellness. My name is Luke Duboy, this is Zau. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much, thanks.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Good show So.
Speaker 2:Harold, thank you.