Turning Tragedy into Change: A Suicide-Loss Survivor's Advocacy

Have you ever wondered about the power of transformation in the face of unimaginable grief? We are about to take you through the inspiring journey of Bob Swanson, a father who, after losing his son to suicide, found a new purpose as a passionate advocate for mental health awareness and suicide prevention. Bob's story embodies the resilience that can emerge from immense grief and adversity, giving hope and inspiration to others.

Through his journey, Bob has gained a deep understanding of the importance of being present, recognizing warning signs, and having open conversations about mental health. He educates us about the significance of language when discussing suicide and the rising rates of suicide in the US. Bob's transformation has led him from a life focused on productivity to one dedicated to understanding and helping others cope with mental health issues. His story serves as a reminder that growth is possible even amidst loss and devastation.

 Bob drives home the importance of recognizing warning signs and being present in distress. His commitment to suicide prevention and mental health awareness serves as a beacon of hope and resilience for those struggling with their mental health. Bob's experience helps us to understand the importance of compassion and understanding when dealing with mental health issues. So, join us as we walk through Bob's inspiring journey, highlighting the growth potential that can emerge from adversity.

Home | AFSP- American Foundation for Suicide Prevention
SAVE: Suicide Prevention, Information, and Awareness-Suicide Awareness Voices of Education
Home | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness-National Alliance on Mental Illness
National Institutes of Health (NIH) | Turning Discovery Into Health-National Institutes of Health
QPR Institute | Practical and Proven Suicide Prevention Training QPR Institute (en-US)
Mental Health First Aid

Visit our website!
Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)

Videos on our YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@RecoveryCollective

New Episodes are released every Monday.

If you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share it with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.

Check us on Social Media:
Facebook:  @RecoveryCollectiveMd
Instagram: @recovery_collective_md
TikTok: @lukederecoverycollective

The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational, and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you have a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 or 9-8-8

Explore a mindful path with Zaw Maw's coaching—Foster balance, healing, recovery, and meditation in your life's journey through his supportive and wisdom-based guidance.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey there, my friends, and welcome to a profoundly impactful episode when that carries immense meaning, as we honor National Recovery Month and this episode is being released during National Suicide Prevention Week, which is the second week of September. In this month, we aim to increase public awareness surrounding mental health and addiction recovery. One of the taglines is hope is real and recovery is possible. The goal of National Suicide Prevention Week is to raise awareness about suicide, promote mental health education, reduce stigma around discussing suicide and encourage individuals to reach out for help if they or someone they know is struggling with suicidal thoughts. So part of ZAWL and myself's personal goal is to open conversations about mental health, provide resources and support and ultimately prevent suicide through increased awareness and understanding. As one of the hosts, I'm deeply honored to guide us through a conversation that's going to touch your hearts and shed light on an often unspoken side of mental health struggles and, to be completely honest with you, it might be a difficult conversation for myself, so I'll honor our guest today. So if at any point you feel like it's hitting a heart string or is too challenging, guess what? This is a podcast and we encourage you to stop and set it aside, and the beauty of it is. You can check it out. Our hope is it's cathartic, it's helpful, it's supportive. But if now is not the time, go ahead and skip this episode. But it is National Recovery Month and I'm looking forward to this episode, even though it comes with HeartSpeak, if you will today.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Now, bob's story isn't just a story. It's a testament to the resilience of transformative potential that can emerge from really a heart-wrenching adversity. Now there is a thought-provoking question that bounds you to engage your curiosity. What ignites the transformation from a father who initially had limited familiarity with mental health concerns? As he warmly puts it, old Bob, new Bob, who passionately champions now mental health advocacy and unwaveringly strives for suicide prevention. So joining us all and I today is our special guest, bob Swanson, a man whose journey takes us through grief, resilience and transformation. Bob, welcome, welcome, bob.

Speaker 2: 2:36

Nice to be with both of you today.

Speaker 1: 2:40

So I did my best to set that up. As it's quite a potentially intense talk we have today on the topic of suicide, suicide awareness, prevention and everything that comes with it, Can you briefly introduce yourself and share a bit about your journey that led you to really becoming an amazing advocate for mental health awareness and suicide prevention?

Speaker 2: 3:04

Sure, the last 14 years have been transformational. 14 years ago actually, march 13, 2009, our oldest son, michael, died by suicides. So everyone in our family were suicide loss survivors. We've lost a loved one to suicide, but Michael's journey with mental illness actually started, I would say, early in his adolescence. He was diagnosed at eighth or ninth grade that he had clinical depression. It wasn't until he made an attempt on his life at age 29 that we understood he was living with bipolar disorder. And now, since his death, I've realized that he was living with other illnesses of the brain. People affected disorder, anxiety disorder and also substance use and abuse of alcohol. Those weren't clear, so I'll look a little bit more about me.

Speaker 2: 4:10

I was in the construction industry my whole adult life. It happened to be a part of it called the pain in decorating industry. The last 25 years of my career I had the privilege to lead a very successful pain in decorating contracting firm. Losing Michael was devastating and I didn't understand all that he was going through and I never will. I was like how could this happen? The first attempt on his life was devastating, but of course, the loss of his life was even more so. Everything I assumed prior to that, as far as working hard, providing for your family, doing the right thing, having a strong faith and the Creator, I believe in. All that just turned upside down immediately and I went through quite a period of a lot of grief, a lot of guilt and after Michael's death I buried myself in my work One. I loved it, I thought I was good at it, still do. But that was a safe place and we as a family pulled in, pulled away from everybody, because that was the only thing that felt safe. Of course those were not the right things to do, but that was our safety mechanism.

Speaker 2: 5:39

Thankfully, not too long after Michael's death I was encouraged to do it, to join a man's support group, part of SAVE, suicide awareness, voices of education. It was all males. Up to that point I had never been in a support group. I was in the construction industry where you figure things out I'm a boomer where you figure things out yourself. You don't go to anybody. I can remember early on in life it was from my dad just tough it up, tough it up. So that helped me at least acknowledge I wasn't alone. Prior to Michael's death we got involved in the National Alliance of Mental Illness, another great group who I volunteer for today and I have for the last 10 years. It began. It allowed us to realize we weren't alone and it wasn't our fault.

Speaker 1: 6:40

Then I want to ask you a question, bob, for someone that you painted quite a picture of shock. Surprise, your son died by suicide and you did what she did right. You called yourself a boomer and owning a business in the construction industry. We know about the Sigma stereotype and culture with that field. So you got lost in your work and that was your potentially healthy escape. It's hey, I'm being a part of society, I need to function all those things that come with that stage of shock and grief and loss. How did you get from that stage to wait? Now you're talking about being open to attending AMI meetings and save, and you're glad that you did. How did you get to that point?

Speaker 2: 7:47

Well, I was at rock bottom after losing Michael. It was like I didn't know if I could go on and I grasped my faith and pleaded with the God I believe in helping. I can't deal with this. I don't know how to deal with it. When I would submit at my weakest moment is when I was open to other things. Up to that point in my life I would not have been open. It was just out of total despair.

Speaker 1: 8:23

I can't imagine what that is like and I'll never forget. I had a client tell me once that when you lose a spouse, a husband or a wife, you're a widow. If you lose your parents, you're an orphan, but if you lose a child it hurts so bad that there is no name for that. So I can't fathom the type of just heart-wrenching pain and, like you said, I don't know how I could go on. I don't want to take you back there to sensationalize, but for potential family members and parents to realize that they're not alone. What were some of the things that you questioned? I've often heard people say take me instead of him. What were some of those original thoughts that you went through, that years later that you might still question?

Speaker 2: 9:20

Well. After Michael's first attempt and it was clear he was not doing well for four years I worried about him every day, every moment. Is he okay? And what else can we do to help our son? My prayers every day were Lord, give him some peace. And little did I know that prayer was answered, not in the way I wanted, but I know at this point or at that point our son no longer is tormented, he's at peace. So that was probably the beginning of it, luke. So I would tell people. And then I've realized it wasn't my fault. It's an illness.

Speaker 2: 10:15

A brother of mine whose deceased died from multiple illnesses of the body, the main one being cystic fibrosis, whereas lungs just couldn't handle it anymore. And I didn't blame him for that. But I went through a period of time when Michael was still with us, like what's your problem? Why can't you fix this? And how bizarre It'd be like telling my brother why can't you fix cystic fibrosis. It's just is. So I have pain for that. I've asked God to forgive me for that. And I think the other piece after losing a child, how would I say it? I will never heal from that. I've lost both my parents, I've lost a brother and after a while it made sense. We knew we did all we could and the markers the markers we have in medicine dictated life was leaving them. That's not the case with my son and that will trouble me at times. What else could we have done? I don't know if I answered your question, luke, but the big thing is don't blame yourself and forgive yourself if you lose a loved one to suicide.

Speaker 1: 11:45

Yeah, I think you did. I think you normalize some of the things that people may struggle voicing as if it's wrong or I shouldn't be thinking or feeling this way, but it's normal to question, wonder, a lot of those thoughts, whether taking responsibility or doubt or worry. That's a part of this thing for a lot of people. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 12:09

I don't even know where to begin, but I do want to jump in to get more engaged in terms of I relate as a son, because my parents definitely went through something similar, except they were more blessed, but anyway. So I wanted to ask about the thing that you mentioned about finding a group where you don't feel like you're not alone anymore and I really think that is a solution to many of our mental health related problems where I find a community where things can be really tough as a family member of the person who's suffering or the person who suffers himself. And also you mentioned about this despair hitting a rock bottom in a way, and I wanted to hear more about that process where you were open to new ways, but also finding a community where you felt you weren't alone anymore.

Speaker 2: 13:05

Well, I think, because my world was turned upside down. It was like okay, what I've done in the past didn't bring the results I wanted, so I have to be open to try something new. So it was at that rock bottom point. I was open. And then, if you hit that point mentally, now you're willing to. When people approach you, you're willing to say, you know, yes. So when the same group the leader of that called me and said would you be willing to join us one Saturday a month? So the invitation was important, but my willingness to even accept it was important. So those two got to go together and I stayed with that group for about four years until I felt I was ready to move on. I had gotten nourished and I felt I nourished others in the group. But now it was time for me to do something about it rather than just stay in the safety of the group.

Speaker 2: 14:19

And then I was asked from a person who I have worked with now for about a dozen years. She called my wife up and said you think Bob's ready to talk about your journey? I've never spoken. I'm a painting contractor. Yeah, I've made presentations to our employees. But at first I thought, why don't I want to do that. And she said your story is important, it's powerful. So I said yes, and ever since that day I've been speaking. And, luke, today I was asked I'm going to speak at a glass glass build conference the end of October.

Speaker 2: 15:05

I mean, I would have never thought I'd even be in the position to be doing this, and I don't advertise it's a higher power is interceding in this. Or I'd like to say Michael, my son up there is going, go for it, dad, and I feel him at my side. So through loss I've been strengthened. But boy, it was hard work and it took a lot of effort. But I had to be open to it and I don't think I would have been had I not had such a devastating loss. I would have still been going. Okay, just buck it up, work harder, you'll figure it out. All that wasn't working. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's kind of how I went from point A to point B, but I didn't even see the path. The path was not chartered for me. I just was willing to walk forward.

Speaker 3: 16:01

Yeah, as you're sharing.

Speaker 3: 16:03

It makes me think about this line that is so used so often that it's kind of like a signature line, but it means a lot of the thing about thanks for sharing how beautiful and uniting that is, because, being in recovery, I've also lost a lot of friends. They say the longer you stay sober, the longer you stay in recovery, the more funeral you're going to go to which is very hard to adapt to, but eventually to, the more I share about my feelings with others. It becomes more like a celebration or honoring of the life that they lived and also, like you were pointing out earlier too, that it's not our fault, it's not that person's fault, it's an illness, and also this is a fact that is hard to accept but that death is part of life, which I don't really want to think that way, but it actually is true. Death is part of life, but it really unites and strengthen us. Whenever we have connections where we share memories and honor the lives that they lived, it can be very healing and connecting. That's what I'm hearing from your story.

Speaker 2: 17:07

Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 1: 17:09

And I think that is quite a silver lining. And you talk about the Ugh can't even fathom devastation to that opening and new understanding. Can you tell us a little bit more about your growth and awareness of understanding mental health and your son's journey towards that? We talk about it. I like how you talk about old Bob, new Bob, how you looked and you perceived things as owner of a business construction, work, work, work but your bootstraps keep going to what you understand now about mental illness. Take us a little bit along that journey and that silver lining that you have today.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Well, the industry I was brought up in and lived in is a tough industry and it was like you shop for work, that's a given and then you do your work and you go home and all is good and that's the industry. I felt comfortable in that industry. That was the rule. That's the way it is. Did I always shop at the top of my game? No, there's anybody else. But I had to show up to work.

Speaker 2: 19:45

I look back fairly early in my career when I was initially became a supervisor. There's an individual I still haunts me. I was that old Bob and this person hadn't been showing up to work. Their work was not good. They were a lot of anger. The crew was tired of putting up with that person and basically the crew told me get them out of here. So I brought that individual in the office and gave them a presentation. I did too many times. Basically said, the individual's name was Gary. Gary, I don't know what your problem is. You're not performing and unless you change, you can't work here anymore.

Speaker 2: 20:38

I know I contributed to his death. Within two weeks he died by suicide. That still haunts me and it took losing my son. I stayed on that track, but it took to losing my son oldest son to realize. You know, a lot of people have illnesses that are impacting them, so they can't be at the top of their game and Bob Swanson needs to accept that number one. And as an employer, I need to help people be better and not just say it's your fault, no, and that you better fix yourself. That doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2: 21:25

So it took a long time, and then what I realized, when I started giving a feeling in the company that we need to help each other and it's okay to come forward with issues that are holding you back, I was amazed at all the people that were open to telling me their story and it felt so good to help them. So there's a flip side, one that I feel so good about. Old Bob told this individual what I just said and I terminated that person, but that allowed them to take a look at their life and they have been in recovery ever since and that person, about six months, fleeted for the job back and he and I have really had a joyous relationship even after my retirement, in that I helped him but he helped me understand how this all works and he's been feeling so good about himself ever since he was able to address his issues and he's now in recovery and I now understand. I also have a close employee. She called me a few weeks ago and she is now approaching her 100th day of sobriety.

Speaker 2: 22:59

People, they wouldn't have told me those things years ago because I wasn't gonna listen. And so back to your point, zah. I got this joy in my heart, knowing maybe I have helped some people and rather than just throwing people and say it is their fault. So I got long-winded, I get. It's really joyful.

Speaker 3: 23:27

I have a fellow in my community who uses metaphor that the most beautiful gifts come in ugly wrappings, and I've been thinking about that. That. How true and how beautiful that is that one of the many worst experiences that I've experienced were actually the gifts hidden and we can be quite distracted by how it looks, but it's actually something very golden within, where there is joy, and your story is inspiring to be a testament of that.

Speaker 1: 23:57

Yeah, there's been a lot of trial and tribulations that you experienced as a loved one with a family member struggling with mental illness. Can you shine some light on that, when it comes to being there even though you say you're old Bob, but we're not always old Bob there's times, as a family member, as a parent, as a husband, wife, son, that we are supportive, when we're not full of fear and anger. Tell us about some of that lens of being a father and trying to help your son with some of those mental illness things that he was going through. Shine some light on that for us.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Well, number one. Nobody worked harder at trying to cope and manage his illnesses than Michael. I'm now even more so, just astounded by how hard he worked at it Keeping a log with a psychiatrist, taking his meds, diet, exercise, sleep all the things that someone trying to manage an illness of the brain is told to do. He left us a wonderful daughter who today is 26 years old. He, in his own pain, would do anything for his daughter and it was clear on days that we would do stuff together as a family. He wasn't feeling very well but he would rise above that for his daughter Also. How do I? At times maybe we enabled in this manner, we made excuses for him. It's hard, the shame and stigma. It was difficult to tell people our son was living with illnesses of the brain and it was really a closed group that even knew that Michael was living with the illnesses of the brain.

Speaker 1: 26:18

This is real. Why was that a struggle at that time for you?

Speaker 2: 26:23

Shame. I was ashamed of our son having illnesses. I didn't understand why can't he get better? So it was a shame thing. Reflection he was ashamed. He would say dad, why can't I get my crap together? What's wrong with me? I didn't know what to tell him and I think, fear. Once he made an attempt on his life, I was scared for him. Am I gonna lose my son? And this doesn't make sense. So I think that was all wrapped in there.

Speaker 1: 27:03

And to because of that shame, because of that fear, not knowing what to do with it or how to get the support and help, it can compound itself, can it? Oh boy, yeah. And we see that way too often and I think that's part of one thing I wanted to shine light on, as it being Suicide Prevention Week, that these feelings that can feel shameful, or whether family members feel responsible or man are I'm gonna say it this way am I weak? Is he weak? These are feelings that people think and question and feel bad about even voicing it. So thank you for sharing that, because these are real things that happen to people and family members and loved ones Absolutely, and I can only imagine when he passed what that did to your shame. What were some of those experiences at that time when what happened to your shame?

Speaker 2: 28:11

Well, the support group I mentioned. They require you to say I'm your name, who you lost as a loved one, and to say out loud how it happened. Boy oh boy, I cried tears of immense pain. They even get the words up. I couldn't tell anybody that wasn't a very, very close friend or family member, for I don't know how long. I wanna say a couple of years that my oldest son died by suicide. So it took a long time to let go of that. And then it's back to what Zaw said, celebrating when I could finally say to someone today's the anniversary of my son's death he died by suicide, wow.

Speaker 2: 29:18

But here's the crazy thing of our society when you go on a group and I call it just the old standard introduction bar talk, you know who are, you blah, blah, blah. And you finally maybe get a little deeper. Somebody says oh, what'd you do for a career? You got any kids? And I've always said we have four adult kids, I'll never disown Michael, and but I have one one's deceased. Then they of course oh, what happened? He died by suicide.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Almost universally the conversation changes, unless it's somebody that is like you, luke, and says that must be really hurtful, tell me more. But most people just let's go to another topic because I don't wanna talk about that. That increases the shame meter, you know. It brings it back a little bit like boy, you can't even accept my hood and you're dumping that on me. So now you. So I have to be careful of what I do with that and I choose not to pick that up. That's on you, not me. If you have shame and can't deal with my son's death, that's your fault or your problem, not mine. I'm not gonna pick that up.

Speaker 3: 30:50

Good for you. Yeah, the other thing that I'm hearing in the spirit of this month is how precious each moment is, especially from the point of view of like a lot is being impacted. You know, like because I stay really active in recovery, because you never know, a phone call can be a determining point for somebody who's about to commit suicide. And then he makes a phone call and you answer that. You know, or it can be a song from a, you know it can be a lyrics on the radio, or it can be a smile. Whatever it is, you know each moment is so precious because that can have a really positive impact or kind of like a determining, defining moment where they made a decision. Because you know hope can be a little tricky, like it cannot be seen, you know it needs to be sought sometimes, and that it comes in at a surprising time or unexpected time where you're like oh, this is why I'm still living and life is hopeful. You know that's also something else that I'm hearing.

Speaker 2: 31:45

So out of respect and I respect you I would encourage you and others not to say commit suicide. And here's why it's my belief and NAMI, national Anti-Minealism, also believes this. When we say commit, we're blaming the person that they wanted to die. Our son did not want to die, he wanted his pain to end and his illness has caused his death. So I'd rather the term died by suicide, died from suicide or died because of illnesses of the brain, something of that vein, because I think the commit still puts the blame on the person and we're not gonna change the suicide death.

Speaker 2: 32:37

So I looked up something and the year our son died we had about 40,000 suicides in the United States. Last year we had almost 50,000. That's a 25% increase in 10 years. And as long as we feel like while they wanted to die or is there a fault? One, it's not gonna change the statistics. And number two, it keeps pounding that shame on the family members left behind, like it was my fault your son died. No, it wasn't. It wasn't Michael's fault either. So I'm I just, out of respect, thought I'd respond to that statement.

Speaker 3: 33:19

Yeah, that's also another the beauty of this conversation where things opened up, because these are the things that I would not have been educated by, you know, because these are just common terms that people use but having some negative effect on some beans, you know. So I appreciate you correcting that.

Speaker 2: 33:38

And I didn't. I was no different. I use those words for losing our son also. But I've learned, as you both know, words are powerful. They can be powerful negatively or positively.

Speaker 1: 33:55

You absolutely well said and thank you for that there's more hope in here. There's more hope. Your experience in Zal, through the Buddhist principles, talks a lot about suffering and suffering. I think as Americans we have always a negative connotation on suffering, understandably so. But in your heartache that I can't fathom in form of suffering, we're seeing the silver lining and the advocacy. Can you talk a little bit more about those key moments and you shared a little bit about that already just how you went from just tragedy to helping communities grappling with mental illnesses. I mean that's quite a leap. It's quite a leap. I can't fathom that, I can't imagine. I have a little zone, I have little ones and being able to, it's courage, it's heart. You have a heart that's been affected to not just cry when this topic comes up. How did this calling? What is it?

Speaker 2: 35:08

Well, I couldn't be angry the rest of my life. Self pity doesn't get you anywhere. I've always been. I think a gift I have is solving problems. And yet I had to say I couldn't help my son. But how can I help others? Because I, boy, I don't want anyone to go through what we've gone through.

Speaker 2: 35:37

And then it just became clear I got involved in a construction group called the National Alliance on Suicide Prevention and I learned the construction industry. We have more suicides than any other industry and I realized that the suicide rate in the construction industry is almost five times the general population and I said now that's an industry I can relate to. Maybe I can help not only my healing, but help others in the industry I know something about and that again, some of these things it's not me, it's some higher power that's been orchestrating this. So I was asked to speak to a construction financial management association webinar back in 2016 or 17. And then, as you know, luke, the painters were grappling with this and we started developing aids for at least to talk about it and other industries, and since then I've been working with the laborers, the carpenters, and just I'm giving back to an industry I loved and hopefully I'm helping others and I know I am because after any presentation I make, there's usually one or two people come up or more.

Speaker 2: 37:09

So, again, because it's difficult is I make in an email, I make it a phone call and many people have told me, in fact, one that's still again, I feel joyful. A fellow painting contractor I spoke at a painting contracting forum like 2019 maybe and he sent me an email later that your presentation today gave me the courage to address my issues and without that I wouldn't be here today. My goodness, that's humbling but joyful both, in that maybe I had a little measure of helping that person address their issues and have the courage to say I would not be alive today had you not been present. And after every presentation I make, including the classes I taught with you, luke, I'm absolutely emotionally drained every time and I also realize certain places I cannot go as far as talking about Michael's life. I won't go there. It's still too painful. So I believe in self-care very strongly.

Speaker 1: 38:42

I think that's a perfect example of self-care that you're not sacrificing your health and well-being for potentially helping others.

Speaker 1: 38:52

Like you said, and I remember a couple trainings back that we did, we were doing peer support for substance abuse and mental health, peer supports for construction industry, and I remember being unbelievably drained after that and one of the reasons being that we have a close friend of ours that was participating who just lost a son.

Speaker 1: 39:18

How many days before we did that training 30, 36, 46 days before we gave that training and a bunch of the things that we're talking about today he was going through and we were there to support him and I just remembered just being next to him and touching his back and talking about suicide prevention and awareness and mental illness and how they're so interrelated and seeing our friends struggle. That was draining for me. I was there to support him but that was a tough three days. That was a tough three days. So that self-care of noticing and being aware of that and we were giving this training to 30 people from around the US and Canada, but also there with our friend. That is indescribable heartache for most people, took a lot of energy, took a lot of energy.

Speaker 2: 40:24

So, luke, our dear friend, sunday will be one year since his loss.

Speaker 1: 40:30

And one thing I learned from you, bob and this was my sure I'll call it ignorance, my stigma that I learned from you doing a lot of these suicide awareness and prevention trainings, that, oh my, until you told me that you wanted phone calls on that day of your son's passing, michael's passing, I never would have thought to do that and I never felt that you wanted to connect with people during that day and not just hold up.

Speaker 1: 41:06

That was my stigma, that was my illness. The example you gave earlier, as soon as you mentioned as my son passed from suicide, people go inward and I go, wait a minute, I'm here to support my friend Bob. Of course I'm going to put that on my calendar and give him a call To me. It's the connection piece. You're going to that meeting and crying and using that support to connect with people and not be alone in that grief process. Eventually, that silver lining of I certainly didn't want to do it because of the sacrifice of your son, but you get to give back in a way that you never thought you would or could. That's not everybody's story when it comes to suicide, but boy is that powerful. Yeah, I'll be calling him come next weekend.

Speaker 2: 42:02

Well then, I made a presentation to a contracting firm in May and unfortunately, they lost an employee to suicide within that month. The employer called me in grief within hours after he found out and he said what should we do? I said, well, what would you do if an employee died from a heart attack or a car accident? He listed off. I said it's no different that family's grieving and it speaks to what you just said, Luke we as a society tend to treat it different. That family who lost the employee, the loved one, to suicide was hurting just even more so than if they had lost someone to a car accident. But we tend to withdraw, like you said, and all that does is increase the grief and the shame and the pain of the loved ones when they're needing it even more so.

Speaker 1: 43:14

Yeah, what would you tell and I think you're telling us in a bunch of different ways already what would you tell the family member who's struggling with grief of a loved one they lost by suicide? What would you tell that person?

Speaker 2: 43:34

Well, number one, I don't have all the answers. I can share part of my story. It would be well. I have a dear friend who lost an adult child to cancer within the last six months and I said losing a child is immensely painful, but the key is you can't blame yourself If you do the what if I wish we would have done. There's no end to that. Some things we just don't understand and you have to come to some acceptance of that. And then I would really stress what would they want you to do?

Speaker 2: 44:25

Would Michael have wanted me to be an angry man, bitter? No, our son was a loving, caring person who happened to have a number of illnesses. I know Michael would be angry with me if I was just a bitter old man. He would want me to help others. So I would throw it that way. What would your loved one want you to do now, once you start the healing process? And then there's hardly a person would say well, they want me to just be angry. No, they'd want you to carry on their legacy and be loving to others and the family that lost a loved one to cancer. He's going to get involved with demanding, and their community, more cancer research. So I would challenge the family and right after the grief of losing someone, they're not going to hear that, but remind them of that as time goes on.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Yeah, it's really good. It's probably important to. I didn't have this in my notes, but I think this is important to talk about. We've done education and awareness on this topic a couple, more than a couple times, and when it comes to looking at signs and red flags, can you share whether it's Michaels or in general, that you're aware of when it comes to signs or red flags of suicide that can lead to pervention with these red flags?

Speaker 2: 46:18

Well, I didn't know any of those signs. I do today. But again I would say that because of the Stakeman shame of suicide, the signs are hard to read. I don't know too many cases where people have just said today, at tomorrow, at 10 am, I'm going to end my life. It's a gradual process. I've also learned that unfortunately, they've studied people who have survived suicides About 25%.

Speaker 2: 46:57

The cycle of the sequence between idea, plan and action was very, very quick 50%, an hour or less time. So it's not. It's maybe people have suicidal thoughts running on and off, on and off, but they actually take the act and sometimes be very immediate. Something triggers it I'd like to use in my presentations. People living with a mental illness have a dirty windshield. They're not seeing maybe any clear outcomes, they lose hope and I think our son lost hope. So back to your question.

Speaker 2: 47:41

I would say some warning signs behavioral changes, hopelessness, whether they're not engaged, they don't care about anything tomorrow. Verbal statements I won't be around here very much longer. Nobody cares if I'd be dead or alive. These aren't trying to get attention. These are cries for help. So I think every one of those is a serious something requiring a serious attention Losing your freedom Built in all these are losing hope and the shame you get put in jail for a couple days for something that you're ashamed of. Now you're losing control of your life.

Speaker 2: 48:26

We all like to think we're in control of our lives and those of us you in recovery. And now I'm gonna say I'm in recovery, I'm a recovery suicide survivor. I realize I'm not in control of very much, so it's a matter of recognizing that people giving out those warning signs and signals they're crying for help, but they don't know how to say it. So we need to listen better. We need to watch behavior much better. And then, when we're fragile going through a divorce, going through loss of a job, going through major oh, the Centers for Disease Control studied all suicides after 2017. 29% were within two weeks of a life-changing event. So as we go through life-changing events, we're fragile. I was fragile after losing my son, so those are signal signs that we have to really be receptive to.

Speaker 1: 49:33

Yeah, and you talk about ideations, thoughts, plan action and that can happen. You said what an hour time frame and that's something that a lot of times, when people think it, that might be going on, that's something that people shy away from and we teach in our advocacy unit or groups that we talk ask the question. If you're worried about someone, ask them are you thinking of suicide, are you suicidal right now? Be present with that person. To me, that is a powerful thing because that's what that can do when someone has, whether it's depression, the ultimate level of isolation where suicide becomes a legitimate solution and option. There's a lack of connection, there's shame, there's mental illness. So being present enough to ask that person are you suicidal right now? That can potentially save a life.

Speaker 2: 50:39

Well, I had the privilege to listen to an individual. Kevin Hines is his name. He's one of only a couple dozen who have survived an attempt off the Golden Gate Bridge. And here's where his words. He's standing by the railing and he said if anyone had just come up to me and said, are you okay, how can I help? Nobody did that and he felt so alone. And that's he said. I would have probably not gone over the railing if somebody had just made me aware of I was important. He felt no worth and no hope. But now he's living to tell that story. And, boy, if you ever had go on YouTube, powerful story, kevin Hines.

Speaker 1: 51:37

I was very fortunate and I do believe fortunate to work with a suicide prevention team with the Veterans Affairs and VA and part of Maryland and there would literally be veterans with red flags on their system and part of the suicide prevention team is we would call these veterans and there was more than one occasion where I called them and yes, I'm here with I'm looking at a bunch of pills and my training kicked in and I was present with them and I connected with them and I was very fortunate because of that connection that we were able to help them do so. That happened more than one occasion and it just so happened that was one of the veterans that I called that day and at that time just the connection was enough to get him the help that he needed that time. But that can make the difference.

Speaker 1: 52:37

So I'll give you some your Buddhist perspective on things right now, as we don't a lot of topics.

Speaker 3: 52:43

Huh, yeah, this has been really good, and I don't know what comes to mind. And what I'm hearing is also how important it is for us to have a sense of belonging, you know, because we are social animals and when we have that disengagement, that's where thoughts become so loud and those ideas turn into action. You know very quickly, because why do I even exist? You know, I don't matter. But that little conversation how are you feeling? You know, can make a huge difference, like really being present. So I really appreciate everything that you're doing, bob, because this is really almost like a yeah, pretty much educating, you know, the society to look at it differently, but also for people to open up.

Speaker 3: 53:25

But from the Buddhist point of view, you know what I am hearing and what I'm processing. How I'm processing all this is the idea of pain. You know pain is inevitable. Might as well make a good use out of it, you know. So you are a good example of making a good use out of it, of your own personal pain, but also reaching out to other people and helping others. So, yeah, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 53:50

I had a slogan on my wall in the office change with inevitable, growth is optional. And you could say the same about pain. Pain is inevitable, growth is optional. You can be stuck in that pain and resist it or and that will do again, or try to do something about it, and I feel blessed that I'm given the opportunity to do something about it and honoring the son that I dearly loved and lost and still miss. But I will keep doing this as long as people find it valuable. I really appreciate the opportunity to join both of you today. Thank you, yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:42

I know you know this and believe this, just affecting one person in the right direction makes it all worthwhile. Absolutely well, before we wrap up, but now you know a couple and we'll put this in the show notes do you mind sharing some awesome for referral services or mental health groups or suicide prevention groups that, off the top of your head, putting you on this box? I know you know quite a bit of them that you'd recommend and I'll put in the notes afterwards.

Speaker 2: 55:14

American Foundation for suicide prevention excellent group. Suicide awareness. Voices of education excellent group, I would also say National Alliance on mental illness. They have some very good information about suicide prevention. National Institute of Health is another good resource.

Speaker 2: 55:37

And then two courses. I happen to teach one of them, qpr question persuade refer the QPR Institute. It's about an hour and a half course. It tells you some of those things. One, looking at the warning signs how do you ask that question? How do you persuade somebody to get help? And then, having resources, another very good course it's a little longer is it's an eight-hour course mental health first aid. Many of us took basic first aid at some point in our lives to know what to do in case somebody's bleeding, not breathing, etc. This goes into quite a bit more depth of how do you recognize someone's a mental crisis and how do you recognize that they're suicidal, and then what do you do about it and how can you help them get through that. So those are some things that come right away to mind and just like there's a 911 number, isn't there a national?

Speaker 2: 56:41

national suicide, it's not just national suicide. So 988, thank you Luke, it will refer you to a local crisis center. It goes off your cell phone so if I was traveling in Virginia and I called the 988 number, it would be thinking I'm in Minnesota, so it referred to me to a Minnesota crisis line. But 988's a national crisis line, so it's both for if someone's in a mental crisis situation or just struggling to the point also of being suicidal, and it's it's staff 24-7 by crisis individuals. Another resource if you do call 911 because it's an imminent danger, ask for a crisis intervention team.

Speaker 1: 57:32

Law enforcement agencies throughout the United States are training people how to deal with someone in mental crisis, so ask for a crisis intervention team, thank you so much for joining us today in this profoundly moving journey that we've that you've been through, and I think this is a powerful episode. Remember Bob's story reminds us that even in the darkest moments, there's room for hope, transformation and advocacy. If you're moved by Bob's journey and want to learn more, we'll be sharing resources that you can explore in the notes, and a huge thank you to Saul and, of course, bob for sharing his heart with us. Just stay tuned for more transformative conversations and, until then, take care, be compassionate and never underestimate the power of your story. My name is Luke. This is all. We'll see you next time, see, yeah, thank you, bob thank you to both of you.