Craving Relief: Uniting Behavioral Therapy and Buddhist Wisdom for Addiction Recovery

--We feel now is the time to introduce our new (FREE) subscription service, "The Collective", offering additional resources to elevate the growth of your mental health and wellness recovery. Tune in for enriching content designed to support you every step of the way. Click the link to subscribe. --
https://www.recoverycollectivemd.com/news-events

What if you could gain control over your cravings, wouldn't this transform your journey to sobriety? Join us as we, Luke DeBoy, a therapist, and Zaw Maw,  a seasoned Buddhist practitioner, share practical strategies to manage the intense urges that often accompany recovery. Together, we offer a blend of therapeutic and Buddhist perspectives to help you recognize, understand, and ultimately reduce the power of your cravings. Learn about the three R's and discover how mindfulness can be a powerful tool in distinguishing between being the craving and being with the craving.

In this episode, we discuss how cravings go beyond substances, affecting behaviors and foods, and their significant impact on your moods. Discover the Buddhist concept of craving (tanha) as a source of suffering and how this ancient wisdom, combined with behavioral therapy, can help you break the cycle of addiction. We also share practical tips how to navigate social situations during recovery. Our aim is to equip you with tools that can make a real difference in your journey to healing and growth.


Season two comes to a close at the end of July as we'll be working on our E-Course. We'll take the month of August off and see you again in September.

Visit our website!
Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Zaw Maw — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)
Luke DeBoy — Recovery Collective — Annapolis, MD (recoverycollectivemd.com)

New Episodes are released every other Monday.

Thanks for listening, and please subscribe/comment/review/follow/like; if you think others would benefit from the podcast episode, share with others, as COLLECTIVELY, we can find solutions to all things health and wellness.

The episodes contain content, including information provided by guests, intended for perspective, informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, legal, or other advice. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professi

Explore a mindful path with Zaw Maw's coaching—Foster balance, healing, recovery, and meditation in your life's journey through his supportive and wisdom-based guidance.

Recovery Collective
Allow Us To Bridge The Gap Between Therapy and Recovery. Therapy, Acupuncture, Coaching & More!

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to A Therapist, A Buddhist to you, brought to you by the Recovery Collective in Annapolis, Maryland. At the Recovery Collective, we offer hope and support on your journey to healing and growth. I'm your co-host and therapist, Luke Dubois, and I'm joined by my co-host, the ever enlightening and always surprising Zalma.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Hey Luke, hey Zalma.

Speaker 1: 0:21

Cravings.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:23

Cravings are something we all all of us experience, and yes, that even includes the monk who has let go of all the personal belongings. I'm not lying. That's the truth. The second truth, if I'm not mistaken, it's a joke, right? Whether you're battling addiction or just curious about managing those irresistible urges, this episode is for you. We'll explore powerful strategies to help you navigate and overcome cravings. So stick around, because you're about to hear something that really could be life-changing.

Speaker 1: 0:55

Cravings, whether it's for substances, a behavior or even certain foods, they can really be intense, overwhelming and sometimes feel impossible to control. They can really be intense, overwhelming and sometimes feel impossible to control. I can relate. Last night's all there's, that Haagen-Dazs coconut pineapple ice cream. That's summer and dirty. That was a craving. But what if I told you there are strategies to manage and overcome these cravings. There's techniques that not only help you recognize and understand them, but also reduce the power over you and offer practical steps to take when they become too strong. So in today's episode, we're going to explore these strategies in depth. We'll uncover the secrets to effectively manage cravings, drawn from both therapeutic and Buddhist perspectives, whether you're supporting someone who is, or you're simply interested in better understanding this human behavior and mental health. We're providing ways to gain control over these so vicious impulses. So be sure to remember to like and subscribe to our podcast and stay updated on future episodes. And if you find our discussion helpful, please share them with others who might benefit. That's really our division and engineer. Your support helps us continue bringing valuable content to you and others. And if you've been with us for multiple episodes and want to show your gratitude in the form of giving us a call for your cash, please do so through the link in our episode notes. We'd be very happy and if you want, we can give you a shout-out. And don't forget, season 2 of our podcast will be wrapping up in July. So after this one, we've got one more episode in July and we'll be taking a break in August to work on some exciting e-courses that we know you'll find beneficial. We'll be back in September with season three, packed with more insightful topics and discussions. So it's all this week.

Speaker 1: 2:42

This week, it's the week we get to introduce our brand new subscription to our listeners here and our other platforms. We call it the Collective. It's backed with valuable insights, practical tips and exclusive updates designed to elevate your mental health and support your wellness recovery, and it's something that we certainly talked about for a while. We want to bring a lot of value in everything, and this subscription will be free, and it's really important us to bring bring this to you guys, and our mission is to offer expert advice and actionable strategies that continually help you people in your lives. So we'll have a recurring segment in the subscription.

Speaker 1: 3:23

You'll explore how to align your self-care practices with the natural cycles of life and enhance your well-being with practical, season-specific advice. One of the great practitioners of the Recovery Collective, jennifer. She will guide you from winter's introspective calm to summer's vibrant energy, helping you nurture yourself through the changing seasons. So that would be really cool, right? You'll also gain access to unique resources, the latest updates on our services, workshops, e-courses you know short-term, long-term goals we might have some e-books or other books to offer, as well as other community events.

Speaker 1: 4:03

Our engaging content includes Zal with his Buddhist inspired mindfulness exercises, and we'll offer other holistic tips and inspiring real-life stories. Plus, if you sign up, you'll enjoy special offers and exclusive discounts available only to our subscribers. So click the link in the episode notes and you'll get an email from us, and we will not spam you to death, that's for sure. We'll make it valuable. So check us out. It'll be in the episode notes. You can also check our website out. It'll be pretty readily available there. It will be worked through live, so all right, so let's get into it.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Sounds good, so let's get into.

Speaker 1: 4:44

It Sounds good. Cravings it's time for us to go to the recovery and addiction topic. I want to talk about reducing cravings. You know they can happen at a bunch of different times with people's journeys, especially early on, and there can be trigger periods for people. But I like to be talking about it in some of the other episodes that we've talked about, whether it's the physiological aspects of addiction, whether it's the perfect equation of recovery we've talked about this one's getting down to the nitty-gritty that people struggle with, and that's that's great news yeah, where do we begin?

Speaker 1: 5:21

well, we all go yeah maybe.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Uh, for you and I they're not necessarily drug and alcohol based like they used to be. I I don't think I've had a full-blown craving in years. I certainly had fleeting thoughts, I think for the first five, six, seven, eight years of my sobriety. As soon as spring went into summer and I hit that that like 83, 85 degree day, for some reason I thought about a beer. Hopefully it came in as fast as it came out and it went out as fast as it came in. But cravings can still happen for people. It doesn't mean that I'm not susceptible to them, because I can be.

Speaker 2: 6:03

Yeah, I like that framing of reducing craving. Especially for somebody who's new, getting rid of craving completely probably sounds impossible. I think it is impossible to be 0%, completely gone. But I guess my understanding of craving or maybe you can expand more on that too of like I need to have it, like the need, like a desperate desire that almost I'm going to die if I don't get it. You know, I don't know if that sounds too extreme, but that's my understanding of what craving means.

Speaker 1: 6:33

And I think for a percentage of our listeners that are in some form of recovery or post-taps. How can I get rid of something if I'm powerless over it? I can't. I'm powerless over drugs and alcohol and my life has become unmanageable. You see so frequently. Well, I don't know if I'll ever get rid of it, but can I reduce it? So let's break the cravings down into three categories to help us cope and deal with them. I call it the three R's. The first one is recognize, the second one reduce and the third one is relocate. Let's break each one down. So the first R, I say recognize.

Speaker 1: 7:11

You can self-diagnose. How many conditions or disorders can you self-diagnose yourself? So if we're having a craving, if we identify it and acknowledge it, if all of a sudden, that first 83, 84 degree day, of course you're selling a lawnmower I want a lawnmower and all of a sudden, man, I always used to drink. Or a holiday with family, man, I always used to sneak down smoke crack, whatever it is. And if you have that craving you can self-diagnose and recognize it. You can go shit. I got a craving. Just that realization and that recognizing that diagnosing could potentially make the difference from I've got a craving impulse, react. I've got a craving obsess and react with using or obsessing about it. If you can self-diagnose and call it out, that might just might be the difference between third decision, second thought, third thought and bad decision. I don't care what any other thoughts are on this. Obsessing about using Do you agree with that?

Speaker 2: 8:19

Yeah. So in a way, you're asking yourself identify. Am I in the state of craving, or call somebody something like that to kind of self-identify? What are the signs? Am I in that mode?

Speaker 1: 8:31

If I can identify it, I might be able to change it. Often, as you as a coach and me as a therapist, we help people identify what they're actually thinking and feeling. If you can identify it, you might be able to do something different with it or about it. But if we can can identify it, you might be able to do something different with it or about it. But if we can't identify it, it can be really hard to know what to do differently. So it breaks us out of that impulsive, compulsive, reactionary, full-body, full-mind experience of cravings to shit happened again.

Speaker 1: 9:02

I got a craving. That little slowdown, little like speed bump or stop can be all the difference between obsession and oh, that gives me enough space for a second and craving to react to craving to suffer a third fall. That's kind of what we're talking about. So recognize it. I often see people in my groups or my clients that either want to minimize or stop their use. They almost cuss at it. It becomes this thing that isn't necessarily their mind or their obsession. It's like you, asshole, You're craving again. Talking to the ism or the, the obsession, often you know, behaviorally you would see people put like a rubber band or like a bracelet on the like with cigarettes, and then they're craving what they do. They snapped it, they identified it and then they would reduce it by like oh I, I would feel a snap, a little pinch, as opposed to need a thought with more negative thoughts. So recognizing it can be a huge difference.

Speaker 2: 10:14

Yeah, and that can be a practice of mindfulness too, because there's a big difference between being the thought and being with the thought. So, like when I'm the craving, I am the craving and there's no, nothing outside of it. I won't even recognize that I'm in that mode. But when I'm with the thought, able to observe it, you know, yeah, you kind of are able to separate it from the thought and then see that, okay, you know, this is I recognize what's going on and what comes with a craving, often, especially those intense cravings, not this fleeting thoughts that may happen in my sobriety today.

Speaker 1: 12:02

It's intense, it's physical, it's emotional cues, it's salivating, it's heart palpitations, it's you hear people sing, they can taste it, it's the sweating, it's racing thoughts, it's everything that is associated that we can be aware and mindful of Recognizing. I'm in it, I am full-blown craving. Diagnosing it. Okay, let's stop, drop and roll the whole crap of just saying no, I'm not telling you to say no, I'm telling you to identify it. If you can identify it, then you might have a second, third, fourth thought that you could do something.

Speaker 1: 12:38

We say it so much. We are powerless over that first thought. We are powerless over that first feeling, that first emotion. I say, in some ways, we are powerless over cravings. Now, one thing I really enjoy is the anatomy of a craving and that relapse. So, yes, do cravings come out of the blue Sure and that relapse? Yes, do cravings come out of the blue Sure? But I think a bunch of other things that we do or put ourselves in that can better set up a craving or set up a relapse. We'd like to reduce those which we'll talk about really soon. I do want to ask you a question.

Speaker 2: 13:16

Go for it, because what you're saying is related to meditation in a way too, because mind has its own mechanism and then it has its own programming. So there's always cause and effect. But then for the mind of an addiction it's even more intense. There's like a wiring that's already going on. So with meditation we're able to catch the thought before it gets too late. Sometimes, when my mind is not trained, I find myself being angry. I don't even know how I got here. But then, through practice of meditation, you're like oh, that was a thought that I was having about the future or the past, and then it creates that mechanism. So I wanted to ask you about the. Maybe it's a little bit of bad tracking, but is there a difference between trigger and the craving? Is it possible to catch the trigger before it turns into craving? Is it something that precedes craving?

Speaker 1: 14:03

Absolutely, absolutely, and not to overwhelm people. It's kind of a chicken and the egg. A lot of times something triggers it, but some people can't fathom that because they're so television and they don't do that. So, to your point, during mindfulness and awareness strategies I probably had 10%, probably being generous, but 5% of people. When I was in a residential setting journal, when you have a craving, hey, you're walking around as doling, keep that thing with you or your five minutes from it, go get it and write down what happened during and five minutes before and when. The people that do that, they identify some common patterns, whether it's the physical place, whether it's their emotions that are triggering the craving, or social situation that is triggering the cravings.

Speaker 1: 14:59

But we're often not that aware of present things so yeah, I'd say more times than not which are things that absolutely trigger a craving for sure. So part of what we'd like to do and we can do that through Buddhism and before we get to reducing these things, can you tell us a little bit more about? What does Buddhism say about recognizing cravings? I kind of made a little pun silly joke about it in the intro. So tell us about cravings and moods.

Speaker 2: 15:36

So that's the second noble truth, after Dukkha is the first noble truth, and then the second noble truth is the muddhya, which has to do with the repetitive craving which is the driving force behind the suffering. But the term that is used is dana, which is kind of like some kind of attachment or almost like an unquenchable thirst. Yeah, so that's a Buddhist understanding of craving, which is some form of attachment or expectation. There's a wanting.

Speaker 1: 16:06

We can break that down as a trigger. Well, for substances, or even food. Why do we often crave sweets, or they often say sugars, like an addiction? Why do we crave a mind-opening substance like alcohol or a mind-opening substance like other drugs? Well, they're trying to find something. What do you mean by that from?

Speaker 2: 16:33

your Buddhist perspective. So the mind and the body in its natural state craves pleasure and hates pain. So the mechanism and the body in this natural state craves pleasure and hates pain. So the mechanism driving the craving is that, you know, avoiding pain and then wanting pleasure, like it's either or. So that to me is like the driving force, not just like with addiction but just like life in general, that I want to avoid pain and I'm going to crave towards no pain, and if there is pleasure I want to crave to that pleasure because that's going to make me feel good. So it's almost like a binary way of programming of the mind and the body.

Speaker 1: 17:12

Do you see that as a human need to either avoid pain or to gain pleasure? And the trick is to do that in a healthy way.

Speaker 2: 17:22

I don't know. I mean in a true Buddhist sense. It's transcending that, uprooting that. It's not either or but. It's transcending but living life in general. I think we're always in that mode. It's nothing personal. It's not my fault to want something pleasurable and to avoid pain. It's just how I'm structured.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Yeah, I think, with my behavioral and therapist lens, that it can be instinctual to do one of those things. And addiction can do both in some ways. And addiction can do both in some ways. It can numb the hour, it can avoid unwanted pain, while it virtually gives you a form of pleasure. And we say, with progression comes addiction. Okay, I know I might not be getting the pleasure that I want, but at least I'm avoiding the discomfort or the pain that I have. And that requires the brain to be interested. Let's talk about the second arc. So they recognize it, self-diagnose, realize it. That can be the difference between feeding the energy of craving and obsession to allowing that second thought on it. So what are the second or third thoughts that would be beneficial? Well, how do I reach son of a bitch, that guy I crave? What do I reach son of a bitch, that guy I'm craving? What do I do now? We want to reduce it. So we want to induce the intensity, the frequency, or just stopping where it's going. That's ideal, right? 12 steps, an obsession of the mind, allergy of the body. We would like to lose this obsession. That's important.

Speaker 1: 19:05

Smart recovery talks about making right decisions to not condition ourself to fuel this and to minimize, trying to, typically behaviorally to not go into that craving. Let's talk about it. It typically lasts a finite amount of time. It's not forever Often. Cravings typically can last one average 10 to 15 minutes. This is not just true for drugs and alcohol. But I think about myself. I crave a sweet after every lunch or dinner and it's usually the most intense for me right after I eat that meal. And if I have the I'll say willpower to not feed that sugar sweet craving, after this 10, 15 minutes, all of a sudden it drops off a cliff and I don't have that tremendous of desire Usually. Now here's the thing with self-sufficiency improvements they can last 10 or 15 minutes. Now there's probably a percentage of our listeners that's going Bullshit, luke. Not my experience and here's what I've noticed.

Speaker 1: 20:18

The best and worst thing happens to people who just weigh out that substance grade. Nothing happens. But what often happens, they'll come back a little bit more intense, a little bit longer and then they'll go away. And then the best and worst thing happens. Best thing is you didn't use, but the worst thing is it'll creep up a little more intense and a little bit longer and if people hold on to that craving. By themselves. They get stronger and longer and people go and people feel powerless and people feel like they can't break this and then the choice decision then doesn't seem like a choice. It's no I have to use. At a really physiological level it's saying I need this to survive. It's really what brings convincing itself with the pleasure center. So that's a nice. To reduce it. I think we should hit the meditation thing right off the bat. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 21:24

yeah, that sounds good how, so how, how?

Speaker 1: 21:27

some people can't fathom meditating, let let alone sitting still when you have a craving.

Speaker 2: 21:31

So you were rebuttal for that before moving on to that, I think there were a lot of uh insights that you were sharing earlier and I want to kind of unpack more about that because, um, this is not the uh exact analogy, but what you were saying kind of reminds me of my experience of buddhist fasting in my buddhist monkhood days.

Speaker 2: 21:52

So, like not eating past noon, the craving comes like I need to eat, you know, because I'm used to eating three meals a day. So, like stopping eating, there's that craving. But then, like you were saying, when I recognize that, wait, why am I craving? Because I haven't eaten, but then am I going to die. It's almost like a self-diagnosis If I don't eat tonight, if I just wait until in the morning, which is what I'm supposed to do, am I going to survive? And then, when I see that truth, I drink water and it gets better and I kind of reduce the interactions. Or like a smell, or in the dining room you know things like that or people eating. When I remove myself from that, it reduces, you know. So it makes me think about that too.

Speaker 2: 22:34

So, in a way, to relate that with meditation, it's like meditating, not like concentration and like distracting, but it's more like leaning more into it, that I want to understand why I'm experiencing this, you know, and then sitting with it and then letting your mind talk to you. That's what I usually do in that fasting mode. It becomes like an opportunity for me to observe the mind and meditate. And the other point probably is also I don't know how to talk about it in a very specific structural way, but people in long-term sobriety knows that when we are craving it's not just like waiting it out, because if I keep waiting it out it's going to come back, but in that mode it's a symptom, right? There's something that needs to be addressed and I have that window and that needs to be addressed through a healthy mean. Otherwise it's like a heart surgery with an open wound and I'm not doing anything about it. So there has to be a treatment of some kind with that window, otherwise the craving is going to kick in and I'm going to go back to the original behavior.

Speaker 1: 23:46

So when you're you as a recovery coach and someone early in recovery, what are some things you're telling them, as you gave the example of that mindfulness, being with that craving, how do you help them through that when maybe in the past, as soon as they thought about it, it was just go and it was no think? How do you help them through that stage, which is so foreign, right, For a lot of people? They're leaving treatment for just being conditioned to craving use and you're setting them up to be with that craving. Explain the recovery coaching to you. How does that work?

Speaker 2: 24:34

Yeah, it's difficult, but it's definitely a collective effort Because it's not like a pre-packaged activities that can be done. But there's an aspect of self-discovery too. You know so that craving, that discomfort, is an expression of a need that is not being met and that needs to be addressed. You know so for me, like I have a long history of finding my own needs, like through creative outlet, you know, playing guitar or going out for a run, like there is a physical, emotional or spiritual need that needs to be addressed, so kind of like sitting with it.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Uh, because you know, essentially, to simplify everything, like in that moment I just want to be happy and I would do everything to be happy, and one of the things that I do know that makes me happy is drinking or using, you know so that's why I go back to it. So finding other channels that's going to make me feel satisfied, content and happy is like how we navigate. So are you going to go out for a walk or are you going to call somebody that you care about or show up to work, Like some kind of a meaningful way of you know dealing with it will be the long-term sustainable way of dealing with it will be a long-term, sustainable way of dealing with it.

Speaker 1: 25:44

Yeah, if someone has the ability to be in that mindfulness, cognitive, present stage with that craving, well, if they're with it for 10-15 minutes and not reacting, then they're also mindful, present and cognitive with the dissipation of that craving 15 minutes and not reacting. And they're also mindful, present and kind of with the dissipation of that craving. And if they're not, they call you or they have their other support or their other coping skills to help them through it. Right, because it's not just the whole shit I got craving that you're mindful through. It's through the full range of experiencing that Gosh, it's through the full range of experiencing that Gosh. It's just a familiar knuckle, it's from good, I got this, shove it down. It's not that I hear you sharing, it's the mindfulness practice of that know, truth and everything that comes with it.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Yeah, and it's also very self-esteem boosting in a way. You know like I think people have experienced that you don't do it and then you're just like so empowered by the fact that I did it and I feel really good and then that builds up over time, right the western culture.

Speaker 1: 26:58

If you can't self-diagnose and go oh, I'm having this right now. It's a bit like measuring the parameter. If you can self-diagnose, if you can have that second thought, third thought come in motion, then this mindfulness exercise might be more useful.

Speaker 1: 27:17

If you can self-diagnose, if you can pause, if you're not always reactionary in that level of early stage powerlessness. Powerlessness evolves and changes but becomes a different level of powerlessness that we can sit with and relate to. So I think that's a good example for cravings. If it's just no, I can't fathom. I just go and then maybe mindfulness is not the best early stage but yeah I'll add to it.

Speaker 1: 27:47

And there's different forms of meditation for cravings. One is, you know, breathing in courage and higher power, exhaling fear, exhaling addiction, exhaling that craving out through your, your mind's eye, andaling it. There's no thought for the exhale. There's different techniques that we can really benefit to be present, hold on to that craving. It's just about two deep breathing exercises. Another one is physical exercise. If someone's in the full-blown craving, do 20-30 jumping jacks, 20-30 push-ups, sit-ups. If you're getting your heart rate up, your blood pumping, you're releasing some bit of dopamine and neurotransfers. Right and just.

Speaker 1: 28:35

I've had people that were coming off of methadone and some blackstone and not only withdrawal cravings. I told them to run around the house, do very jumping jacks, scream off the top of your lungs, get that heart rate up and then release those good neurotransmitters. You're releasing something and it's not the desire to or the quote, unquote need to use, but you're reducing by increasing your body and your heart rate and things like that. So that can be very beneficial. Any form of physical exercise. You've got some history with running. You know running that's a sound beast for a lot of people it can be cathartic.

Speaker 2: 29:18

What do you take it? Bill? That was very helpful for me, although it was not sustainable because I was just doing it by myself. But I still did run a lot in recovery too after joining recovery community. But it does help because that grounding experience is also what I'm looking for in that mode of craving, because that craving mode is like there's no sense of safety, support, grounding experience, but anything that is repetitive gives me the structure and the comfort. So, like some simple meditation, like you were talking about the visualization of breathing in courage, you know breathing out fear or craving, but also any kind of repetition, you know. I know in 12-step communities that surrender prayer is used a lot. Some people just repeat that over and over again, either out loud or in the mind.

Speaker 2: 30:05

There's something very comforting about the repetition, and that's the same effect with the running too. Running is so repetitive but also very grounding. That's my experience. It really helps. Also, it's very physically involving, so it releases some of the tension too. But it's also important not to overdo it, because I've overdone it and it did have adverse or opposite effects.

Speaker 1: 30:31

yeah, I overdid it yeah, but you do a lot of things quite, quite addictive, right? Um, we talked about triggers, so I'll bring this one up. There's an acronym called halt. It stands for hungry, angry, lonely, tired, and I think if you have just one of those things, but especially two, three of those things active at one time, could be the conditions for cravings. So if that triggers a craving, well, let's reduce these things. So, yes, it can be hungry. There's snackers commercials, someone's hangry and moaning and groaning and they say you haven't eaten in a while. Grab a snacker. As soon as they eat, they're no longer hangry. So I'm not just saying it's hungry, but it's also nutritionally. What you put in your body can greatly affect your levels.

Speaker 1: 31:28

So sugar for example, ironically, snickers is not the healthiest food. But what does it do? It can create a spike in blood sugar and, just like when you eat high-sugar foods, you get a boost, an increase, and then what happens? You eventually get a crash. Well, when you use substances, you get a boost, an increase, and then what happens? You get a crash. So that is very we call it like cross-sensitization. If you have excessive sugar, it can lead to sensitivity to substances because you're releasing that dopamine and lots of sugar and might have heightened cravings because of that. And when you eat certain foods, often unhealthy, it stimulates the reward system in the brain, decreasing dopamine levels, just like drugs do. So this can create a similar cycle of craving reward.

Speaker 1: 32:22

When I was at a similar cycle of craving reward, I worked at a treatment facility. We did a morning meeting at 8 am and everyone already ate their breakfasts and stuff and they come into the room and we're talking about the recovery goal for the day and seeing how they feel physically, mentally and spiritually and recovery-related goal. It's an intention and foundation. One day early on I'm looking around the room of 20-plus people and half of them are eating lollipops at 7 and 8 am and I'm going. What are we doing as a facility? We're allowing these people to start their day with a dopamine hit that they're craving.

Speaker 1: 33:05

Obviously, A lot of these people had to use in the morning to get a boost, and now that substance is gone. So now do we allow them to have three, four, five, six, seven, eight cups of coffee and have lollipops and sugar? No, we didn't set up the conditions for that, but that is kind of that cross-sensitization of coffee and have lollipops and sugar? No, we didn't set up the conditions for that, but that is kind of that cross-sensitization. So what we put in our body can certainly have a big effect. There's hormonal effects that can just wrap the fluctuations and blood sugar levels. So it's a huge piece. So that's the whole thing. Or nutrition, let's go to T tired man, we're tired man, we're tired. What happens I?

Speaker 2: 33:45

don't make good decisions when I'm tired.

Speaker 1: 33:49

My ability to function is not there. Literally my prefrontal cortex is impaired. When I'm tired, it makes it harder to resist cravings. It increases the likelihood of being impulsive. It increases my likelihood to deal with emotions like anger. So for a lot of people using substances, they passed out and came to.

Speaker 1: 34:10

One of the reasons why relapse is often high for people greetings are high is because sleep is shit. When you're in detox and withdrawal Sleep is shit and you're not getting that seven to nine hours and withdrawal Sleep is shedding. You're not getting that seven to nine hours, really eight-ish hours of that, four to six cycles of rapid eye movement and slow-loop cycle. It's just heightened stress, emotional instability, stress, hormones revealing well, emotional radiation is not there and I just don't want to feel this. I should have done a coffee and a lot of sweets or all of a sudden you're creating to me initially yeah, it really is a.

Speaker 2: 34:49

It's really, it's a full circle, as you're describing, because, um, you know, just stopping is not the answer. If that's the case, it's like a well-rounded approach. Right, because I need a healthier lifestyle, because if I just don't use and drink and then still living a pretty, um, poor lifestyle, you know I don't have a good shot at it because things are still out of order, you know.

Speaker 1: 35:13

So, yeah, I got the little callous to be in in the field for 15 years plus of people that were withdrawn. We can certainly give you some comfort meds You're still going to be uncomfortable, but we can give you some comfort meds and help your vitals as much as we can. And the people that I really felt for, even if we gave them sleeping medications, they didn't sleep a wink for not just days, weeks. You go out of your mind when you can't sleep right, your mood swings, that your ability, like you're miserable. You want to self medicate. You can't regulate your emotions. You feel like you're losing much. I had a soft spot for that for them. If you can get through this, your body and brain will eventually shut down. Your body will crash and get sleep eventually. But it often takes days even longer for people for that sleep hygiene and for the brain to go. I need that REM now. You're not cutting this off and telling me just to pass out and come to.

Speaker 1: 36:24

So the people that got through those two weeks finally got six hours on day 16 or 17 and they got some coping skills and they tried to not sleep during the day and try to do sleep hygiene, go to sleep every night and a lot of them didn't go to sleep until 5. 55 and then woke up at six and it was like it's sleep hygiene. It's tough but it's so important there's some good. Um gosh, it'll be cool to get a sleep hygiene person on. That could be a whole episode in itself. But pulse right hungry, angry, emotional discomfort, that isolation. So do not isolate yourself. You can reduce screens that way, and tired, that's a tough one.

Speaker 2: 37:08

Yeah, this is probably too much of a simplification, but I like simple things. But, as you're describing, as I'm listening, the thought that comes to mind is like the recovery process is pretty much simply transitioning from a self-abuse lifestyle to self-care lifestyle, because when we're actively using that's a form of harming myself and just by stopping doesn't do it. I have to replace that with self-care.

Speaker 1: 37:34

Self-care and let others care will fess them for us. And that takes us to, I think, probably one of the most important reducing. Let me talk to that. And you have a craving, talk about it. Don't deal with it on your own, by yourself, because, like we said at the beginning, the best and worst thing can happen. You can sit with that craving for 5-10 minutes and nothing happens. But you can tell yourself I got through it, I didn't need to reduce this craving, I could just swallow it, hold on and I don't need anyone for that. That is literally the opposite of step one, isn't it? If you're saying, okay, it comes back up stronger and longer, and if I don't share it, when you share it, it loses some of its power. Somehow. That it's not you and this creating alone, somehow, just sharing it helps reduce it, it becomes less powerful.

Speaker 1: 38:36

But if you do it by yourself. You are managing and you're telling that craving in yourself and that brain wiring system that I'm not powerless over this and I can manage this myself. It is literally the opposite of step one. I've got someone in my mind that I'm working with right now.

Speaker 1: 38:56

And it took them it seemed like weeks and weeks and weeks to finally I'll say courage, talk to other people about their cravings. And then, of course, to talk to the sponsor and she said good, I'm glad you told me so, if it happens again, Call me. So. As soon as this person left and was in the car, guess what they got the craving, Guess what they struggled to do. I don't want to bother her, I just talked with her. So I don't think I can. I should be able to do this myself. She struggled with the craving. Eventually she goes what am I doing? That's what I always try to convince myself not to do, and then she's done full. It's been easier for her.

Speaker 1: 39:43

And she used the word easier, it lost its power. I didn't have to do it by myself. She wasn't filled with shame and guilt. It's let others help us.

Speaker 2: 39:52

I think that's a big reduction, yeah definitely that's a big part of the process of recovery. Self-care is allowing others to help us. Help me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:01

We've got a couple more. This is endless, but I'll give you a couple more. Spending time in nature. The benefit of green spaces, water, mountains. Nature just has this, and energetic as well. Just calling the fact that can lower our cortisol. We should reduce our stress levels. It can reduce that. Nature encourages mindfulness of being present. It can help us recognize and be more in touch with ourself, and that is a powerful thing, don't you?

Speaker 2: 40:35

think, yeah, there is a sense of interconnectedness. When I'm in nature, I mean in the 12-step, some people treat higher power that way. You know nature there's a sense of connection, that, oh, I'm part of this bigger tapestry of life and I'm being taken care of by this same force that's making the plant grow.

Speaker 1: 40:53

You know, you're all connected tapped into the powerful part of that. Interconnectedness is a very powerful actually higher kind of thing in uh theravada or mindfulness, traditional buddhist mindfulness practice too.

Speaker 2: 41:08

The first foundation is a foundation, mindfulness of the body. There are some sections that are about the four elements, meditation. So that can be a really fitting meditation to when you're in nature, when you start becoming mindful of these elements in the body that you can see in nature too. You know the solidity, earthiness and then the water. So there is that connection between my physical body and then the nature, and it can be very soothing and grounding and healing too.

Speaker 1: 41:36

It's beautiful. Other ways to reduce I call it tech detox reduce screen time, social media and electronics. It's amazing how the most short attention ADD person can be on a screen for hours, because what does it do? It's often a blue screen. Blue screen helps us with the conditions for paying attention and makes our eyes be more attentive to that. And to pay attention to a screen we need to use our energy to do so and that's the dopamine release. So there's a reason why people can scroll and jump from social media. People can watch, you know, 5 to 30-second clips for hours and hours because it's dopamine, dopamine, dopamine and it's just constant and that can just drain us and all of a sudden, no matter how tired you are, somehow it's two or three in the morning or it's midnight to get off the screens. That can help you physically, emotionally and allow your brain to be more present. Do the things that meditation, mindfulness is I. It's like the best medicine for the brain and our consciousness. Any jump out to you for ways to reduce.

Speaker 2: 43:02

Yeah, so I'd like to kind of piggyback on that too. A good way that I do is to replace tech with physical books by slowing things down. It really helps. When I physically read a book, it's just like a completely different feeling than reading it on the computer or on social media or on the internet. So physically flipping the page, taking my time or writing in the journal, there's that sense of groundedness too in that. And then the other things too. I don't know if this is more personal and related to my own story, but sometimes to calm my mind in my earlier days there are just so many songs that I've memorized to sing and write and play. So I just write those songs down physically very, very slowly out of my own memory to just calm the mind, write down the lyrics, infusing with the meanings of those lyrics, and then slowing it down. It always helps to slow down the thought process there's a thousand more.

Speaker 1: 44:00

There's a thousand more. Let's talk to the third R. Third R relocate. If you're in the place where you have creating, it won't go away. You've tried some induction techniques calling someone ship NA chip or NAT tag or NA chip or whatever it might be, and it doesn't reduce the craving. Get out of there, remove yourself.

Speaker 1: 44:28

There's a saying if you hang out in a barbershop, you'll eventually get your haircut. If you're hanging out with old using buddies or people that are dambling or playing poker night and they're all drinking and you're not, or if you're at a family wedding and it's that time of night where everyone's sitting in that spot and they're all pass-buzzing and you're seeing and it's almost like this weird wavelength movie and they're all in the exact same spot and it's almost slow motion for you and you don't like it. You can go. If it's a holiday season and it's holidays and you're with your family, please don't go, and they're all wasted or drunk. They don't have to understand. We need to protect our recovery and our sobriety. So, even though they don't understand, I really encourage people to have the courage to prioritize your recovery and your comfort over their expectations, and that can be really challenging for people to do, but my sobriety isn't worth their discomfort, so I think that's a huge rethink.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Yeah, that's good. I'm thinking of something not entirely what you're saying, but in the spirit of relocation it makes me think about. Maybe this requires some like mind training and concentration, but it also applies to the thoughts and the mind you know, because a big part of Buddhist mindfulness practice is to be mindful of. Is this thoughts helping me, or is this a wholesome thought or is it a unwholesome thought? So relocation also means that am I going to hang out with this thought? Is it helping me? Is it going to reduce the craving? If not, let me relocate. Think about something else Within the mind I can relocate to a different thought.

Speaker 1: 46:14

So I got one for some of these listeners to say that's great and all, but I leave work, I have to go on the street and I have to pass that liquor store, or I'm in sales and people are drinking around me and I can't necessarily relocate. So what would you say to the person that has to drive past that liquor store and get their house? They can't technically relocate, but what would you recommend?

Speaker 2: 46:44

I don't know If that person is already in the recovery community. That probably is the way to go in terms of, like you were saying earlier, talking to somebody who has experienced something similar. Not feeling alone, not feeling isolated in that moment can go a long way. If not the help of a higher power of some kind can. Those are the main options.

Speaker 1: 47:08

Couldn't bring more. We didn't get to this abuse of substances passively, so we don't get sober. Pass abuse of substances passively, so we don't get sober passively. We can't just wish our way and I'll say, pray our way to change. You have to be active and proactive. And you might have to go to that networking event where there's booths where you have to pass that street or go by that liquor store. There's booths where you have to pass that street or go by that liquor store.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Well, that's what could tend to be proactive. Whether someone's in a Tulsa program or not, we need to find people that understand us and can help us. So to your point, man, if somehow my car just turns into that, that that park, liquor store, parking lot, well maybe I better tell someone that understands. And then I go hey, family member, husband, wife, friend that doesn't drink, that isn't in recovery program or other forms of support groups, do you mind if I call you when I leave work so I can be in the fund five minutes beforehand, during and five minutes afterwards? That's proactive, that's an active cup, that's what we've got to do. It might be something that's like I can't leave my job financially and I'm stuck, but I'm around this training and I don't know how to drink, how to not drink, or go to the bathroom with that one guy and use cocaine.

Speaker 1: 48:33

Okay, well, for me, I'm going to have a cup in my hand, whether it's a red cup, whether it's a bottle of water, whether it's clear. Say, hey, do you want anything to drink? No, I'm good, got a cup, it's my pacifier, you know you talk to someone. Hey, I'm getting ready to do this networking event or business meeting or sales, whatever it might be. Thanks for talking to me, and I'll call you in 20 minutes when I quote unquote use in the bathroom. That's an active, proactive approach to okay, you can relocate at the time, but you can relocate that drinking hand with a cup or a pot of water or an apple juice or a cranberry juice.

Speaker 1: 49:17

Okay, I can't. Uh, I can't not, I have to go to the seating. But you know what? I got some family stuff, my kids I do have to leave a little bit early today and those are things that they do. I'm willing to protect my recovery and sobriety and sacrifice potentially some of their discomfort for me saying no, I'm not going to the bathroom, I don't need to pee. Come on, let's do a bump, I'll be ready to close this deal Whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 49:46

it's being me whacked and if all else fails, I'm willing to get fired to protect my recovery. No job I'm not doing. No job. I'm not good at my job if I'm allergic and I break out in handcuffs, right. So then that's something that I help people with. My family may never talk to me again. Is it worth not dying of your addiction? Well, I'll try to reduce the blow, but I'll certainly relocate myself because I'm prioritizing my recovery more than someone else Guilt, shame, passive aggressiveness, unhealthy behaviors because we have to relocate our addictive and awesome mentality through recovery mentality. Do you agree?

Speaker 2: 50:29

Yeah. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, it's a practice I've got to put myself out there but definitely a really good investment. Because, um, I don't know if this is true for all the addicts, but like a big part of being an alcoholic and an addict also means for me practicing self-deception too much. I don't really know what I really want, but then when I put myself out there, connect, there are moments where I like I don't want to be like this anymore. I don't want, want to drink. I have those moments. But when I actually communicate it, talk to other people, I start finding myself through those moments, but by myself. I lie to myself all the time I don't want to drink anymore, but then I change my mind and drink again. That spiraling down of self-deception, connecting with communities and then calling myself out when I really want to stop, and then staying true to the desire, really builds up and sets up for better days to stay sober.

Speaker 1: 51:20

I'll give you two more examples of the recognized reduced relocate. One was a client who was an MP and he had to go back to Upper Baltimore to her friend, saying he was getting betrayed with Baltimore, to find the thing. He was in the tree in the hospital and all of a sudden he was on Fifth Street and he realized he used three streets from here and then it stopped on Sixth Street. All of a sudden his heart rate went up. Two streets away On Seventh Street he starts sweating and he can taste the drugs and the heroin and the music 8th Street.

Speaker 1: 52:01

All of a sudden he stopped where he would use, clenched on, put his hand in his pocket. He had his NAT tag. He just held on. Guess what he did he started praying. He held on Guess what he did? He started praying. Don't let me get off this. Help me, give me the courage not to leave. Ninth street All of a sudden he exhaled. Tenth street he let go of his fingers. Twelfth street he texts his sponsor. Thirteenth street. So he recognized, he did what he could in the moment to reduce and then he'd relocate. And the last one I had. My boss worked in an inpatient facility and I was a treatment assistant and it was after lunch and I knocked on his door and I opened it and he had I say this endearingly- crazy eyes meaning almost like tunnel vision, but like fear.

Speaker 1: 52:54

I say this endearingly crazy eyes, meaning almost like tunnel vision, but like fear and shock at the same time. I looked at him and we're both in recovery. I probably had six years. He had like 12, 12 years, something like that. And I go you okay, dude, and he says no, I'm not. He got a call from an old-easing buddy. He's the director of a rehab right, driving up all sons to rehab. It triggered his old cravings. Luckily he worked with his best friend who was overseeing the adolescent unit, talked to him for 15 minutes Work wasn't important at this time and guess what? Still wasn't going away, still had intense cravings, still wanted to use. He called his sponsor Sponsor, talked to him for a little bit longer and I went and checked on him. I'm like, hey, man, how can I help? And he said I need to leave for a while.

Speaker 1: 53:51

I said yeah, that's probably a good idea Now did I think he was going to go use? No, I didn't. I think he did enough. He recognized it, self-diagnosed. He's doing things to reduce it, multiple things, not impulsively trying to reduce, but intentionally, with purpose trying to reduce these things. He still had it craving A very safe place, a drug alcohol rehab facility for adolescents and adults. It was still there. So guess what he did? He went out for a while. He's gone for 20 minutes. I don't know if he walked or whether he got in his car. I know he didn't use, but he relocated. He came back and said you good, he says he had a lot there.

Speaker 2: 54:31

that's what we need to do we have a plan?

Speaker 1: 54:34

Whether it be recovery-related literature, prayer is a huge thing for a lot of people. Whether it's to a God, to a higher power, to something that can give us the courage and strength and the wisdom and recovery to do the next right thing, that's a big thing for a lot of people. The last story is there's this lady who told her sponsor not to visit her. She suggested not to visit her family in Texas during the holiday because the sponsor knew she was going to set herself up for cravings and triggers. So she decided to go. She called her sponsor and she said Jan, I think I'm going to use. And her sponsor said you know, honey, I don't know if there's anything I can do, but what I recommend is you say a prayer. She said okay, she got off the phone.

Speaker 1: 55:32

Hours went by, she didn't know if she used or not. The next day her sponsor called her and said hey, I'm in Texas and I'm still sober, and I listened to what you said. I had seen her do the bathroom. She did the bathroom. She closed the bathroom stall door, she got on her knees right at the bathroom stall and she prayed to her higher power. And she prayed to her higher power, and that, for her, was the difference between using it and not using it. We do what we need to do, we take actions that we need to take, and I think one of the common themes for this is we don't do it alone. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 56:07

Yeah, good stuff. Those are good stories. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, our body always remembers, so, both in addiction and in recovery. That's why cravings are there, because I've trained my body. I remember the feeling that I get after that meeting. So I just do it over and over again. Or meditation, I know the effect produced by it by the end. So, just like doing that over and over again, it's like almost like the retraining of the body and the consciousness. So, yeah, I guess we cannot emphasize that enough when it comes to recovery, because it's repetition. So I got to replace the program of addiction with the program of recovery. There is no such thing as no program. There is always one program. It's either the addiction or recovery.

Speaker 1: 57:12

It's a great black and white to look at. Am I going closer to a drink or drug or am I doing the action of recovery, the reaction of addictive tendencies? Thank you all for joining us today in today's journey into recognizing, reducing and potentially getting rid of those cravings. We delve into the science behind cravings and explore practical strategies to manage them. Remember, the path to recovery and well-being is unique for everyone. Finding what works for you is key. Hopefully we showed you a lot of things. We hope you found today's discussion valuable. If you did, let us know, send us a message, and you can do so right in the episode notes or on our website. We make it super easy for you to contact us.

Speaker 1: 58:01

We can even share it on our next episode if you give us some feedback. That'd be a lot of fun. So please share this episode with anyone who might benefit and there are plenty of people. It's always cool to hear some of the therapists or counselors who play this or other episodes for their groups Really warming to hear. So your support helps us continue bringing really this meaningful content. Don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter. We're excited to launch that, so please click the link and subscribe for more tips, insights and updates.

Speaker 1: 58:32

Our newsletter is packed with resources on mental health, addiction recovery, mindfulness and holistic wellness. Remember, it's designed to support you on your journey to healing and growth. So thank you for being part of our community. Keep your journey growing Until next time. My name is Luke.

Speaker 2: 58:49

This is Zha. Thank you all for listening.