A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
Harnessing the Untamed Path to Healing: Exploring Equine-Assisted Therapy and the Emotional Connection with Courtney Jones
What if you could unlock the power of healing and self-discovery through a unique relationship with one of nature's most majestic creatures? That's exactly what we reveal in this conversation with Courtney Jones, an experienced mental health and trauma-informed therapist who passionately advocates for the incredible benefits of equine therapy.
Together, we delve into the world of equine therapy, unearthing the profound connection between these sensitive animals and individuals who have experienced trauma or are struggling with mental health issues. Can horses read minds...or your spirit?! We discuss the fantastic ability of horses to mirror our emotions and provide insights into our feelings and experiences. Throughout the episode, we emphasize the importance of trust, partnership, and mindfulness in fostering a successful therapeutic relationship between the equine and the individual.
Don't miss this opportunity to learn more about the transformative power of equine therapy and mirror neurons! Whether seeking healing from past trauma or simply seeking a deeper understanding of yourself, this heartfelt conversation with Courtney Jones offers valuable insights and inspiration. Join us as we embark on a journey to self-discovery and growth through the incredible world of healing with horses.
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Welcome to A Therapist of Buddhist Youth, the podcast where we embark on a transformative journey of self-discovery and collective growth. I'm your host, Luke DeBoy, a therapist with a passion for all things related to health and wellness. I'm thrilled to introduce our co-host, the embodiment of serenity.
Speaker 2:I'm thrilled to be here too.
Speaker 1:Zal brings his profound wisdom and compassionate nature as a Buddhist practitioner to our enlightening adventure. Together, we delve into a fascinating intersection of psychology, spirituality and all things health and wellness. We hope you're ready to explore the depths of human experience and unlock practical insights that can enhance your well-being. So join us as we engage in thought-provoking discussions, share personal stories and connect with us, who will impart their own profound wisdom. Our aim is to provide you with valuable tools, strategies and perspectives that can empower you on your own path to self-discovery and growth. Through our heartfelt conversations and shared experience, we'll navigate the complexities of life, uncovering the secrets to holistic well-being. So whether you're seeking mental clarity, spiritual nourishment or practical guidance, a therapist and Buddhist in you is your trusted companion. So tune in and, as always, please like, follow, subscribe. Whether it's a bell, a plus, we're on YouTube now. Please do so so that way we can keep growing our community and share with other people. So today, Zal, we're talking about healing with horses and the benefits of equine therapy. We're going to explore the incredible world of equine therapy and its benefits for mental health, trauma and so much more. These have been used for centuries as working animals, but they've also become recognized as powerful healers in recent years. Today we'll dive deep into the topic with an expert. We'll discuss equine therapy, how it works and the specific benefits it can have for individuals who have experienced trauma or are struggling with mental health issues. So whether you're a horse lover or just curious about alternative forms of therapy, you won't want to miss this episode.
Speaker 1:So today we're bringing on Courtney Jones. She's a highly respected and experienced mental health and trauma therapist based in Glen Bernie, maryland. With her a decade of experience working in the field, courtney is a trusted voice in trauma therapy. She is dedicated to helping individuals heal and grow from different life experiences. As the Bay Area Counseling and Consultation owner, courtney provides services to support her clients, including individual and group therapy, trauma treatment and equine and animal assisted therapy. Courtney's commitment to excellence in her field is reflected in her impressive credentials, which does include master's degree in social work from the University of Maryland School of Social Work, as well as a certified clinical trauma professional and a certified equine partnered psychotherapist and learning facilitator. I believe I said that right Through her work with Bay Area Counseling and Consultation, courtney has helped countless individuals find healing and empowerment through equine therapy. She passionately advocates for this powerful approach to mental health and well-being, which is why we asked her to join today. Welcome.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me. Yeah, welcome.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining us. So very glad that you are here today, courtney. So equine therapy do we go big or small for us? I guess we'll go. Oh, how does it work in general? And then we'll fine tune it.
Speaker 3:Well, go ahead and saddle up. How does it work? That is a really awesome question. So equine assisted psychotherapy in partnership with equines is really how it works. So I think the mindset is going into a relationship with equines instead of trying to use them as tools. So that's one of the biggest platforms that I share with patients is like this is a partnership. So if I were to have another colleague in the room, you know, to help with your mental health, this is kind of my colleague for the day, this is our colleague, so this is the other therapist that's going to be in the room. Same thing with my canine companion, leona. It's the exact same thing when we do sessions together. She's a partner So Lucky and I partner together.
Speaker 1:So it sets it up for, i guess, a deeper connection, and not just this thing. It's an animal, it's a relationship.
Speaker 3:Oh, 100%. Yeah, All equine work is relational 100%.
Speaker 1:I imagine I'm thinking about my own experiences with equine therapy, knowing that and believing that, but not necessarily comfortable with that relationship at first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the therapist in me wants to say tell me more about that. Yeah, i think that that's really common. I think a lot of times, people are really intimidated by just the general size of equines, which is something to work with, for sure. But at the end of the day, it's really breaking down the nuances to what equines bring to that relationship and, simply put, we're predators in their prey. They are herd animals. We pull one out of their herd to come and partner with us. It's very intentional work that they are also contributing to. You know, because they don't have, they don't. They could choose not to work, they could choose to cry, call out for their herd, they could buck, they could run away, but they are also part of that equation. They want to participate. It's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm really, yeah, i was really looking forward to this conversation And I have a lot of questions and also reflecting on my own experience too. But first thought that comes to mind as we're starting the conversation is about how healing happens, you know, when there is a connection, but also the opposite is true when I'm closed off. So I'm curious how that process is like when you're helping a client, or in your own experience too, that you know an animal does not talk, but then there is the existence, the energy, life force behind it, and then you can connect to it. I have a very limited experience, but like they really reflect your emotional state and which is cool, because I don't have that access to myself sometimes, you know. So I want to know more about that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that you're bringing that up, because that's how it is sometimes. You know, equine assisted therapy has taught me so much about myself and what I bring into the session and how I am too, and, simply put, the reason that equines mirror our emotions is because they have what we have mirror neurons. What they lack, which is kind of like a gift, is the prefrontal cortex to distinguish why they're feeling the way that they're feeling. So they literally mirror what we bring into the session. And so for someone who is closed off, you know our equine partner is going to mirror that back, so they might not engage. They might have their back to you the whole time. You might walk over to them, they might walk away, but if you're open, your equine mirrors that as well and comes over to you in partnership. It's fascinating stuff and it's amazing to watch it unfold too, and you can talk about the power of it all day, but until you experience it it's a whole different world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a powerful opening, you know, because that model is true for life too. Right, Like I would think that, why are all these things happening to me? You know, life is happening to me, but it's actually a reflection of what's happening inside. So I love that because, yeah, I did have an experience with some horses while I was in treatment this last time And it was really we did it with a group and it's crazy how the same horse reflects differently to like five different people. You know And it wasn't about the robe, but it's more about the way we were guided is that you pay attention, you know, kind of communicate with the horse and then she will follow the lead. It's not about the robe, but more the intention behind it, you know.
Speaker 1:It's like there's no playing poker, or if you are playing poker, it'll play it back.
Speaker 3:Yes, and we have a lot of folks I have the privilege of working with and that's something that we get to see acting out like it goes live with that, where someone will tell us one thing but that's not how they're feeling, and so the horse reflects back what is really going on in that intention and that gives us a really great platform to discuss what's going on. I have a good example of this. Actually, we were doing a group and you know this modality is relatively new to me, so I'm still so much, you know, a teacher and a student all the time. But there were two participants and myself and the horse was kind of just walking away and really just not wanting to engage, kind of shifty, and the other equine specialist said who's nervous here? And the two people were like not me, not me, and I was. I had to walk away because this horse was really mirroring my energy and go take a couple deep breaths before I rejoined. You know that pot of folks.
Speaker 1:So you talk about mirror neurons, that we mirror things as children, we mirror our family. So talk about that energy connection and I don't know how you explain that, but obviously the horse has picked up on that How?
Speaker 3:Oh, man, okay, so I guess the best way I can describe it is just to talk a little bit about equine biology. You know so equines have a very great sense of smell. They've been used, you know, to seek out water, you know, for centuries. That's, you know, one of the jobs they had. Real quick little sidebar too. Equines can also help find people that are lost.
Speaker 2:They can do search and rescue.
Speaker 3:They have the same amount of olfactory Yep, gr, sus. They have the same amount of color cones as canines do to, which is really interesting. but the most interesting fact is equines are huge animals. They are about 50 million times larger than a fly that will land on them, but they can feel that. So, to put that into perspective, for us it would be like a dandelion seed falling on my hand and me being able to feel that we can't, and so just think about the energy that we emit as humans and their sensitivity to that. So anytime we go into a session, anytime before I ride, anytime before I greet an equine and ask, you know, consent to come into their space, anytime before I have a session, no matter what we're going to be talking about, we try to center our energy to be respective of how sensitive they are. Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 1:It takes me back to my first equine experience, where we're in the pen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There was two of us in there and the horse was by the fence and we were on the back middle and the equine therapist just said well, why don't you try to ground yourself and take a couple breaths? and the person I was in there with we both did it in a matter of 15 seconds just did that exhale and allowed myself to be present or grounded. That horse came right over. Every time.
Speaker 3:We did a group. We did a group not too long ago and it was an over-the-fence observation and I asked the equine specialist if we could partner with a couple equines that maybe didn't always get along and just see how, you know, our group members felt about observing the interactions and, you know, some of these equines were really trying to move the other ones feet and, i guess, an equine talk. They were like I'll see you outside or something, and that evoked a physiological effect in the group members. They were talking about how they were feeling anxious. They could relate it, you know, to their own relationships in the house or with their, you know, colleagues or family members.
Speaker 3:So we did a meditation and we centered ourselves, talked about slowing down our heartbeat you know how that feels in our body and as soon as we did that, all three of those equines that were, you know, getting on each other in the field came over, came all the way over from where they were to where we were and started eating grass. All three of them That's that energy exchange that they can buy into Like I want that, and came over and reinforced it for us. And now we're in this symbiotic, you know, emotional relationship.
Speaker 1:Because equine's horses don't have that pre that cerebral cortex, the forward thinking, the rational, the logic reason, because they're so, in my words. Tell me, if you agree, hyper sensitive to touch, to energy, to emotions. Are they always a grounded creature or because they don't have that prefrontal cortex? they don't. There's always in the present. They don't need to help me understand that.
Speaker 3:I think, i think you're pretty close to it And my I'm still learning too. It's like evolving in my life and practice. But horses are like vigilante. They're vigilant, right. So they're always scanning the environment, always for safety. Am I going to die, yes or no? And once you get the no, you're not going to die, right, then they can really, you know, be in the moment.
Speaker 3:But because they don't have a prefrontal cortex, they don't come with all the logic and the fun, fun stuff that we, as humans, bring with us. There's no continual filters, there's nothing about, you know, like my programming from growing up. Do you know what I mean? Totally? And so it's just this constant neuro. You know, connectivity and understanding of the world. Am I safe? Yes, cool. Then what's happening here? Am I safe? Awesome, let me keep doing what I'm doing. And they do this within the herd too, which is really fascinating. So equines co-regulate. You know they're herd animals, they're prey animals, right? So it's all about safety. They have these really integral ways of like knowing who is who in the herd. But they will actually, like, all sit and eat grass, but each member of the herd will keep a look out for where they are within the herd too, so it's like constantly being alert, but also being calm.
Speaker 1:So, as humans, if we're in that fight or flight response continuously, it can be looked at as trauma. But because they don't have that prefrontal cortex and they're always co-regulating that, they're not in that trauma response like humans.
Speaker 3:So that's a really good question And I don't think I'm sophisticated enough to know the nuances to answer that.
Speaker 1:Just fascinating.
Speaker 3:But what I do know is that their amygdala is always on, But the prefrontal cortex of like the rash now and the logic isn't there. So it's really just like am I dying, No cool. Am I dying, No cool?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what you said earlier about how sensitive they are, how receptive they are. it's awesome, but also can be very overwhelming and scary at the same time, for somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're human.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i mean tell me more about that, because I deal with that all the time with patients that come to the farm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I mean that emphasized the point that we're all interconnected, that my sense of self of like oh, this is me, as if I can hide, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's really healing, you know, like, because I'm being exposed to my own emotions by seeing how this horse is reacting to me. So it makes me think of that. But also, like I heard this stories when I was growing up, because there are people who meditate a lot, and then when you're describing about how sensitive they are to the size of their body and also to a fly, so I've heard some stories where people would go on to retreats and then they would meditate and they get to this place where they will be meditating and they can feel one of their hair on their eyebrow fall off. They are aware of that, you know, so, like, so for us it's more like going back to it. Right, we might have that ability, but we have all these programming and opinions, and like we're kind of numb from it, although we have that capability of sensitivity to be aware of another human being or to our own feelings. You know, so it makes me think of that How much of a beautiful process this is to go within and uncover.
Speaker 3:There's a quote I can't remember who said it on top of my head, but something along the lines If you don't like the way your horse is behaving, go look in the mirror. You don't like the way your horse is acting, go look in the mirror. And it's true.
Speaker 1:I think, why this conversation has me so juiced up, energized, you know, whether it's therapy, classical Chinese medicine, meditation, equine is a wonderful way of, even if we avoid awareness or consciousness or denial, that equine brings these things out, even if you are trying to hide it or subconsciously trying to just protect ourselves. Equine kind of gives this insight, with this horse to be able to do so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 2:Are there also like particular ways to treat them or to keep them healthy, or do they also get trained? You mentioned earlier about like how much they want to participate in this healing process as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Yeah, so there are so many different modalities for equine assisted psychotherapy and the way that I've been trained was through a course of Awakening with Equines which is, all you know, grounded in spiritual psychology. So when I say things like they want to do the work, i'm coming from a place of looking at this work as like there's. They're the shamans of the mammal world And I'm just allowing them to kind of facilitate with me along the process, which clinically kind of goes against my training. But because you can see the power of working with an equine, it's just magical.
Speaker 3:But to answer your question, the farm that I partner with Nicker's Retreat, they do an outstanding job caring for their equine partners And every horse has a role in a job And Lisa, the farm owner, does a. She's really great at ensuring that her equines don't get burnt out from the work because there's so is so much energy exchange all the time And I've actually found that some patients are not a good fit for my equine partner because their energy is too much And we have to do a lot of groundwork to re-regulate him because it kind of carries it with him, which is fascinating because they don't have a lot of that Like they don't have the memory, like we do, where it's categorized. Do you know what I mean? Or you can't be like, oh, it was this person that made me feel this way, but it was like so much energy is so confusing to his system it gets overwhelmed.
Speaker 3:So, to answer your question, any horse that has a horse analogy and that's the term for it that can be social and do this work can, but you have to be really mindful that they're sentient beings and they're not here for us to objectify them or work them. We have to treat them like we would ourselves you know what I mean? Or like a best friend and read their cues and make sure that their basic needs are met and also their emotional needs are met. I hope that answered your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, So talk more about the type of training, the spiritual aspect. Do you connect that? is it parallel to energy? Take us down that road.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i definitely do, and it's really where the patient wants to go, you know with it for sure. I just know from you know my professional and personal experience that it's I don't know how else to explain it as though that equines have more mirror neurons than any other mammal.
Speaker 1:I mean the way that they explain that to our listeners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i mean that's that's it. I mean just the way that their brain is built, that that that in and of itself sets them apart. They can receive, read and change their behavior based off of our behavior. No other mammal really, you know, has that same kind of relationship with the way that their brain has developed. It's like no prefrontal cortex means they're not logically doing it. That it's this energy. It's so spiritual if you think about it.
Speaker 1:I often say emotions are spiritual, kind of aligns with what we're talking about By mirror neurons. For the listeners are you meaning that they can literally mirror behaviorally, emotionally. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 3:Emotionally. Yeah, i'm not a neuroscientist by by any stretch of the imagination, but mirror neurons are the neurons in our brain that set our motor neurons up to receive information. Mirror neurons are popping off right now. It's how we, as humans, can pick up on each other's feelings. That's what makes, maybe us good, you know, practitioners, is that's where the empathy is. I can feel it when you experience it, right, yeah, and then I can watch someone do something, can watch you pick up that cup and drink it, and my brain is going to receive that information as if I was doing it. Horses learn the same way. They have those neurons, so they can watch an elder equine load into a trailer. Their brain will fire the same exact way as if it was actually happening for them And with that observation they can learn that behavior which is so gnarly. Yeah, but without that prefrontal cortex it doesn't categorize it like our brain does, which is good and bad. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, That's really fascinating. and also puzzling for me too is that, you know, in human communication apparently it's like less than or more, less than 20, more than 80% or around. There is nonverbal, So like the words that we're using is very limited. The rest is all communicated through energy or facial expression, body gesture. So it's really crazy how we belong to different species but at the same time, horses can pick up. So it's probably not what they're seeing with our gesture, but it's more about what they're feeling from us. So when you talk about mirror neurons, it's not just about how I am standing to the horse, but it's more about how am I emotionally? And it has been mirror to them, which is not visible. Emotions are not really visible in its raw, original form. So it's really fascinating. Yeah, tell me more about how they are trained or how do they pick it up.
Speaker 3:I think it's part of their genetics.
Speaker 3:Yeah, essence is the best word for it. I don't think that they're trained and they're probably our other EAP providers that might say differently but I don't think that they're trained to read emotion. I think that they can be trained to utilize a sense, but not this sense. I think they're neuroception, like our neuroception reads you know what I mean reads things. but it's a very unique relationship, which is why riding is such a profound sport, because horses and riders, they really can become like one unit. The brains of the rider and the equine are speaking to each other through proprioception, through breathing, through connectivity. So I think equines can be trained on the fundamentals of how to have manners, how to have boundaries, how to ride, but in terms of being trained like we are clinically, that's not, in my experience, how it's done. It's more of this spiritual component of their makeup that allows for them to be these shamans of the animal world, essentially.
Speaker 1:Awesome healers, practitioners. They're setting up the conditions as much as we hope to as facilitators. Very cool, Knowing these things and you being a conduit with a horse. What are some of your goals as a facilitator with these horses? I guess it depends. I imagine most people that are coming to equine don't say I want to work on this, like they might in a sit-down office for therapy. I imagine it can be emotional regulation, trauma, work, addiction, work, trust. How do you determine where the group, where the horse and where you're going with this dance of constant information? and you do have a cerebral cortex. How do you do it?
Speaker 3:I love that question because this is what equine assistants at Psychotherapy has taught me the most about myself at this stage in my journey. We just got to let that shit go, because I will develop.
Speaker 1:I just got chills. It was the ultimate like, let it go, let the magic happen.
Speaker 3:I mean, i'm very science-based as an individual, but working in partnership with equines has opened up this other side of me so much more. I develop program, we have a treatment plan with patients. We have an intention, a thought of what we want to work on, But nine times out of 10, it doesn't always work out the way that we want it to. It's whatever comes up, it's whatever is gifted to us in session, it's whatever is being mirrored back.
Speaker 1:I feel like I say this almost every other episode where, almost every episode, somehow, we talk about spirituality. It always gets to some form of energy or spirituality. I often use the analogy of setting up the conditions. You can turn the soil, you can plant the seed, you can water it, you can wait for the right season, but there's other variables that we have no control over. But we do our best to set up the conditions And then somehow that energy force does the rest or doesn't do the rest. So trust, i imagine trusting your process, learning about yourself, trusting these horses, which probably came easier for you than other things I'm imagining. But where's trust in this whole thing with you? LSR.
Speaker 3:Now, it's big. It is so big. I want to talk about maybe just my equine partner for a second to Lucky. Lucky is, i think, he's 18 and a half hands. He's huge. He's 1200 pounds. He's a Havarian, retired sport horse, and injury took him out of his game which is something I always share with patients because the trajectory of his life changed. He has low attention span. If I were to humanize some of his characteristics, i would say he's mildly ADHD.
Speaker 3:Yep, he's amazing, but we can't work together without trust. He is huge. He could kick me and break my leg if he wanted to, and just me being a predator in him, a prey. He already trusts me. We have to do a lot of work outside of session to continue to build that trust, and it's different every day. I have to meet him where he's at, and then not just that, we have to have a relationship with the patient and they have to trust the process. I mean, there's nothing that's going to occur if there's not trust between us, him and myself, and we work hard at that too. It's not just he really showed me that earlier this year, but the holidays, changes of the seasons, my bonding time with him just got skewed. So I just show up for session and he'd be like that's not what we do. I haven't seen you all week. Where are my apples? Where's my time in? Where's the bonding? And that really showed me that I have to be true to what we've agreed to do together.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm going on a limb when I'm making the assumption that this is probably one of the deepest relationships you have in this world.
Speaker 3:It's interesting. Yeah, it is. I joke sometimes with the farm owner. I'm like we're like a married couple and we have to relearn how we speak to each other and how we talk And he brings that up, he brings it to the surface.
Speaker 3:Well, let me know for sure And I've had to really make sure that when I go I spend time with him beforehand And I don't have to always ensure that I'm coming from a place of namaste when I'm on the farm. But I have to be honest with him about where I'm at, because that disconnect of energy for me will throw off the session. So if I'm just like, hey, my day has been a little wild, it's not you, it's me, we'll get through it. He can receive that and we can work through it because he knows he can trust what I'm saying. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 2:I know you mentioned there's no typical path for anybody specifically. But how does that healing journey look like in general? Because my guess is that when I'm in, usually the suffering comes from not being present with the present moment, because I'm stuck in the past or I'm worried about the future. But when I see an animal reflecting my own emotions, i am brought to the present moment. Which healing can start that way. But how is that? So, yeah, walking me through the process in general of a patient coming in very broken trauma, you know how does that healing process start happening? through that connection with equines.
Speaker 3:The animals bring to us a gift of unconditional love and lack of judgment And that in and of itself starts a really beautiful relational experience. And most of the time you know folks that are coming in for trauma work there's some kind of attachment wound somewhere along the line. No matter what the trauma was, it's an attachment wound And so having that experience with any of my canine colleague or my equine partner, that in and of itself starts the journey. And a lot of times, with that relational experience and that attachment and that caretaking and that nurturing, we can transfer that into human relationships. And some modalities might say that there's a specific way that they you know they do it. But for me we go in with an intention, we see where the work goes and then we process, you know afterwards of what came up.
Speaker 3:And I have a really interesting, you know, patient I've been working with for a while on complex grief And she has equine experience. So for her she was, she had already bought into you know the process, like she wanted to be out in the farm. There was so much beautiful energy, you know, just really powerful, and my, our equine partner always showed a disorganized kind of reaction with her And I just what's going on? Nothing, you know, i'm okay, i'm sad, whatever, but the way that he would interact was just there, was this disconnect, and I couldn't understand what was happening Until most recently, she came back and she's like I've been faking my, i've been faking it, i'm just hoping that I could make it.
Speaker 3:I was trying to fake it till I made it, and I'm like that. Thank you for sharing that. That makes sense. that makes so much sense over the last couple weeks when we've been partnering with Lucky, why he's appeared to be off or restless And he just started looking and chilling, and for equines that's a sign of relaxation, and so then now our work can begin in a different way.
Speaker 1:Processing part has to be the coolest because it gives it to you. It's there. Where else does your mind go with the, the Buddhist perspective that your. Buddhist principles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the mentioning of unconditional love, you know, that really speaks to me And I reflect on my own experience too. I had like fascination for animals when I was growing up. There's something very like I was. For some reason I was very struck by elephants. You know we have a lot of elephants back in Burma And then whenever I looked them in the eyes in the elephant, they're like it looks like they've been on this planet for a long time And also that they're very wise but also very sad at the same time.
Speaker 2:You know, so like for me to be able to connect with another human being or animal to another life comes from, as a Buddhist, my fundamental belief. The first noble truth is there is suffering. So that unconditional love enters into my heart when I realize that everybody is suffering, so that's the sense that I get whenever I look into the eyes of the elephant. They're like, yeah, we know, you know, kind of that feeling that we know how you're feeling but we have love available, kind of thing. So that, where my mind took me when you mentioned about unconditional love, that is possible. We are suffering but at the same time we're not alone, kind of feeling, exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly, that's 100% it. We had a group a couple months ago and of course you know we had it all written out.
Speaker 3:This is what we're gonna do is how it's gonna go. And one of the group members just really had this, a beautiful, you know, release and experience, And she's like. I feel this horse's emotion. Every other horse here is fine. This one does not want to be here. Like me, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be confined, I don't want to be made to be doing this work. I bet that recognition for this equine that you're feeling in yourself I bet they would really. What can you tell yourself right now? What could you say to them to help make them feel better? That's how you think they're feeling. And they went over and we did a breathing meditation and they went over and they just shared that energy with their equine partner And it was this collective feeling of ease. It was beautiful. That's the other thing I really love about working with equines too is comfort, the attunement, the attachment. But then there's just being out in nature. There's this lack of disease, just a centeredness, a groundedness. It's beautiful.
Speaker 1:So the mindfulness or the meditation is probably sprinkled throughout the whole exercise of equine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Are there certain populations that you really enjoy working with when it comes to equine, or does the equine assisted therapy feel like this is a great clientele for this type of work? I think it can work for just about anything, but what do you think?
Speaker 3:I agree with you wholeheartedly that it can work with anything, anyone you know, any mental health disorder, cerebral palsy, traumatic brain injury, stroke all the stuff I can just share with you. What my, what I'm learning about my equine partner is that depression and anxiety in adults seems to be his jam. Yep, individuals that have trauma, that are not fragmented and are not super disorganized. He really vibes with them too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, So then it depends on the partner, is what you're saying.
Speaker 3:It does in the situation, for sure.
Speaker 2:I guess it's mentioned in the yoga world about the prana right, the pranayama, which is a yoga practice based on the breathing, but in our Buddhist tradition we call it anna panna, which is the process of breathing in and out. When I think of breath, it's not just about the oxygen, but it's the life force that comes in and out, which is always a reflection of how I'm feeling. And when I breathe in, there is something entering into my body as life force and it can make some parts of my body pleasant, unpleasant, but it becomes like an opportunity to stay in tune with. How am I maintaining the life force within me? You know, what I was curious about was how is it reflected in the? in the equines Maybe, like when they detect something from us, their own breathing and their own heartbeat changes as well, since they are reflecting. So you mentioned about that symbiotic relationship. Yeah, so that's the part that I'm curious about, about their heartbeat and also their breathing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they, it is that exchange, so they will mirror that for sure. And then a lot of different styles of writing. They also factor in the breath as a way to communicate with their equine partner. So I think it's dressage, writing signals when they breathe out for their equine partner to stop. So there is that, you know, connectedness. One of the cool things about working with equines, or some equine knowledge, is that they can feel our heartbeat from four feet away. So if I am anxious and I'm having all of the physiological symptoms of anxiety, my equine partner is going to feel that. Okay, that doesn't mean that they're going to say I'm out of here, this person's not safe. They can also sense if I'm coming in to hurt them or if I'm having my own experience, and once I can reregulate, they can also mirror that back to me as a form of reregulation.
Speaker 1:So you can really help the clients whether it's anxiety, trauma, mental health concerns to begin to co-regulate and notice it.
Speaker 3:All the time? Yeah, all the time. That's one of the biggest takeaways from the work. Is this always getting back into a relaxed muscle body and partnership with equines.
Speaker 1:So this is all. being able to do that through breath, work and meditation and have these other variables with these horses in real life To be aware of that is wonderful.
Speaker 3:I think that's one of the benefits of the work too is sometimes we see therapeutic gains much quicker than traditional therapy because it's reinforced immediately. Yeah, and that's a neuronic connection. And then, once that continues, a new neuro pathway is built and people can really take on that experience and it becomes lived, something they can achieve much quicker than they could before.
Speaker 1:What are some of the challenges and limitations with equine Accessibility could be one.
Speaker 3:I would say that that's one of the the drivers for this work is growing up. Equines were not accessible to me, so, being as someone who accepts Maryland Medicaid, i'd love to make this accessible for folks for sure. I would say one of the biggest challenges that I run into is weather, and then also where my equine is, where my equine partner is that day. There's so much that goes into. I could wake up on the wrong side of the bed. You know what I mean. Maybe it was like raining heavily the night before. He didn't eat on time, or he's just not really feeling that well. So I think it's just having a partner that's an animal is always interesting.
Speaker 1:In terms of group work. I often use the analogy I might be a composer for a group, but I don't know where the course is going to go Exactly. I can try to help compose and take it somewhere, but no, sometimes the band takes it where it needs to and I sit back.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Very neat. Well, tell us more about your counseling practice.
Speaker 3:Bay Area Counseling and Consultation is a mental health group practice and we're trauma-informed from the front office to the billing department Really diverse set of clinicians. I specialize in trauma and we take all major insurances except for Aetna, Marilyn Medicaid, Johns Hopkins, Cygna, Blue Cross and Blue Shield TriCare. I would say that my colleagues in the practice are just really passionate about the work. So everyone is, we're all generalists in mental health, but we have our own niches that we really like to work with. And end, The majority of our services are telehealth.
Speaker 1:And how do people find out about the equine work? What are the specific groups that you run for? the practice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i do a kids group once a month and that is a DBT in partnership with equine. So we learned about dbt skills and then we partner with our equines to practice those skills. I do a women's group once a month and it's women in recovery and that just builds on. you know the skills that we did the week before Mindfulness, character defects, you know what it means to let go, trust, building communication skills. And then myself and another colleague in the practice do the individual equine work and we work with the folks anxiety, depression, trauma, dual diagnosis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm still stuck on that healing journey. Healing process Sounds like it's something that complements other things too, because something's being revealed as you're interacting with the horse, and then are the patients also being observed in a way where a therapist is involved, like you were talking about earlier. Some examples that I noticed something in the horse or noticed something on you. What is it that's going on underneath, which is probably that is not brought up if it's just a therapist and a patient, you know, because that person is not ready to open up, like closed off.
Speaker 2:But then when there's an animal which is reflecting, there is no way of hiding it, which speed up the process, i guess. Yeah, so that's kind of unique to this equine which is probably not possible through other means.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really powerful, especially from what you're talking about too, because I think I said this earlier but sometimes the therapeutic gains happen so much more quickly. you know what I mean Because we have this partnership. it just kind of like brings it up and brings it out. Sometimes folks have a hard time with attachment and developing relationships, but not with our equine partner, So that kind of sparks something in them too. And then sometimes we have patients who are stuck with where they are in treatment. So when we would potentially refer them, you know, maybe to a specialist or whatever, we can try equine assistance, psychotherapy to see if we can have a breakthrough, And usually we do, which is awesome.
Speaker 1:Such a powerful way to break barriers or resistance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, are there also when you first evaluate or see a patient where that's not a fit with an equine therapy or that they're not ready for it yet, kind of thing. Because, as I was reflecting earlier too, that it can be quite overwhelming, you know, to see my own emotions in animal reflecting. I'm like I don't want to see how I'm feeling yet. Yeah, so are there any patients who are not ready?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a ton of patients who aren't ready. I have a couple on my case Like now. They're like I really want to do this and I can't wait to get you there because you're going to benefit so much from it. But we're not stable enough for this kind of work yet, and a lot of that is understanding what my equine partner's central nervous system is also capable of. It's this dance, right, it's not just me and the patient, it's energy work, exactly exactly. But it's also acknowledging. Like you know, we need to get to this much more place where you don't need to have a mastery of skills, but I need you to be able to apply them more. Or sometimes some folks in trauma they're just too fragmented at the time. Right That we just need to work on stabilization just a little bit more, but we screen every patient too, so folks that are stable on their medication. Lack of active suicide. Suicidality, not homicidal. No history of animal cruelty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I guess part of it is having a certain level of insight and awareness, but the other part is not just spewing your energy everywhere for the horses and things like that. for that quote unquote stabilization.
Speaker 3:And I think and sometimes it happens, that's okay. Sometimes we get there and we're doing the work and it's all coming out and that's okay. We can always step outside of the ring, we can do a breathing, we can take a walk and put some space for our equine partner And when that happens, that's, that's fine. It's just making sure that we have enough insight before we go into it to understand each other and the relationship and the boundaries You got to be able to take a break when we need it.
Speaker 2:I do have another question, which might be a silly question, but over the years I've realized that healing crying is a very healing thing. Do horses have ability to cry as well? If you were to break down in front of a horse with all these emotions and you start crying, how do they react to it?
Speaker 3:This is a great question. I don't know, yes or no, if horses can cry, but I know that they feel sadness And there's a ton of research that shows that they feel sadness and can go through depression, but they'll come over and offer comfort. I've seen that. I've seen that personally. I've gone through that experience myself and been comforted by an equine partner or been with a patient who's done the same thing. It's amazing.
Speaker 1:In my limited experience I don't know if I haven't seen a client or a group member not cry equine therapy. Somehow these emotions become so uprooted or just aware during equine therapy that it's for a lot of people it would be hard to hide their emotions. I don't know if that cover that winter jacket of no. I'm fine but somehow that energy transfer. I don't know what it is, but it's a limited experience, But the emotions come to the surface.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'll never see the horses the same after this conversation, especially what we said earlier about them not having prefrontal cortex, but the emotions really inspiring for a meditator, that sense of self disappear in a very, very freeing way that you're just in the moment feeling. The feeling Because we do suffer a lot from our own identity that this is how I should be treated, this is how I should be feeling, this is me, this is me in the future, this is me from the past. Exactly All these limited ways of identifying ourselves as this individual. But for horses they're like yeah, i'm just here.
Speaker 3:No judgment. Man, exactly, i validate that. I think about that sometimes too Right, they're just in the moment. No judgment. I like your vibe Cool, let's keep going.
Speaker 1:Let's do this Well. thank you so much, courtney. Is there anything else that you'd like to tell the audience about equine therapy that we maybe haven't touched upon yet?
Speaker 3:I think we head on all the big things. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was really fun I know what we could feel.
Speaker 1:I've probably came across that We could feel the energy and the passion in this room and the connectedness was a lot of fun for us doing this episode, so thank you for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for having me, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well. Horses are often viewed as powerful and intuitive creatures in the context of equine therapy and known for their ability to connect with humans when a deep, emotional and energetic and, as we learned today spiritual level Equine therapy. Horses are regarded as sentient beings that can mirror and respond to human emotions and behaviors. Their presence and interactions can have profound experiences and insights for individuals participating in this type of therapy. The horses non-judgmental nature, sensitivity and ability to read human body language make them awesome, effective partners in the therapeutic interventions. The therapeutic relationship between human and horses and equine therapy can be transformative and often leads to personal growth, increased self-awareness, healing and enhance emotional well-being. Horses can help individuals develop assertiveness, empathy, trust, empowerment, emotional regulation skills and so much more I can't begin to name. I think this was just an amazing one of the reasons why we do this podcast So that way we can learn and empower others to receive services and therapeutic modalities and connection with something like equine therapy and therapists like Courtney with her partner. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, as always, like comment share and my name's Luke DeBoy And this is Zaw.
Speaker 2:See you guys next time. Thanks so much.