A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
Artificial Intelligence, and the Age of Artificial Spirituality
What if Buddhism holds the key to our relationship with artificial intelligence? That's one of the compelling questions we grapple with in this thought-provoking episode. Settle in as we dissect a fascinating piece from The Atlantic that explores a monk's prediction about AI, the world's end, and how Buddhist teachings could provide an answer. As we delve deeper, we look at the intricacies of Theravada Buddhism and discuss how it may intersect with AI's capabilities.
The second half of our conversation takes you on a journey to discover AI's potential influence on personal growth and spirituality. We examine how AI-powered chatbots, virtual meditation apps, virtual reality, and digital prayer platforms transform our spiritual pursuits. But we're not just painting a rosy picture here. We critically evaluate the limitations of AI and the potential pitfalls through the viewpoint of a therapist and a Buddhist. We ponder how we can express Dharma, or truth, through AI. This episode uniquely combines technology and spirituality, offering a fresh perspective on these intersecting realms. Tune in to redefine your spiritual journey in the age of AI.
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Welcome to A Therapist Buddhist in You. My name is Luke Duboy and I'm here with my favorite Buddhist in quite possibly yours too. I'm here with Zomo.
Speaker 2:Hey Luke, hello everyone Comment.
Speaker 1:Share like It does mean a lot and gives other people a chance to listen as well. In addition to that, we are really enjoying this. But you do have the opportunity to donate or grant us some financial beings through this, so that will be in the show notes and you can certainly donate And we appreciate that if you so choose. Let's get into a very interesting topic, as all today We have been doing some video, we've done camera, we've done computer to do some video aspects to our podcast over the past couple months and we've been enjoying that.
Speaker 1:And I remember as all, a couple months ago we started talking about AI and artificial intelligence and the effects that's having on the world in a lot of ways, and we talked about how it can affect podcasting and things like that. And I reached out to Zao about this article in the Atlantic I believe it was the month of June, maybe the first article in July And, lo and behold, it was about a monk who thinks the world is ending And what he's really talking about is can Buddhism fix AI or artificial intelligence? When I sent that article to you, what did you think about, zao?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I read it right away. I was putting my kids to sleep when you sent that and they were already asleep. Yeah, pretty interesting like the intersection of spirituality and artificial intelligence. But my immediate reaction was can Buddhism, or should Buddhism, even claim a role here? Is it part of the Dharma? Should it be? And then I read it and those were my initial thoughts And then I kept reading it and pretty good stuff. It provoked some interesting thoughts about what AI means, which I have limited understanding of, but also to go deeper into Buddhist concepts and what it's about. So it's a great idea that you decided to do a podcast topic on that, because it's going to bring up some important things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So thank you all for listening as we embark on this journey to explore this fascinating, in some ways, relationship between these two seemingly distinct realms. We have got artificial intelligence, often referred to as AI, and it's made significant advancements in recent years, revolutionizing various aspects of our lives, from self-driving cars to virtual assistants. But AI technology continues to shape our world in a bunch of different ways, so relating it to spirituality is, to me, is a whole other ballpark that I never even considered. We read the article, but I thought it would be pretty interesting if I use AI to explain what the article was about for our listeners. So I'm going to read a two blurb article And I believe the Atlantic. There's a paywall, but hey, now you can use AI to not pay for monthly subscriptions, apparently, if you're interested in the cliff notes, when we were younger so I don't know if you had this in your schooling or upbringing we had this thing called cliff notes, that if you had a book to read and you didn't read it all, you could buy the cliff notes version that had it in summary or bullet points, so that way you could answer the teacher's questions when you're in English class. So this is what AI sums up the article. This article in the Atlantic.
Speaker 1:The monk who thinks the world is quote ending. The monk's name is apologized for the pronunciation. So are you for all? A monk ordained in the Zen Buddhist tradition who founded a monastery called Maple, and the acronym stands for Manasic Academy for the preservation of life on earth and the far north in Vermont. He believes that humanity is exponentially destroyed, life on the same curve as we have exponentially increased intelligence, and that AI might soon destroy us Seems pretty intense verbiage For all. Provide spiritual advice to AI thinkers and host talks and quote unquote awakening retreats to researchers and developers, including employees from open AI, google, deepmind and Apple. Roughly 50 tech types have done retreats at Maple in the past few years. The article explores the question of whether Buddhism can fix AI. That's the summary by artificial intelligence about this article. Well, what jumped out at you, zao, when it comes to reading this article? This Buddhist monk certainly has some passionate perspectives on. I mean, what was the quote from the? from artificial intelligence itself? this curve is at a level that will destroy humankind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's a lot to unpack, but I guess the foundations are the fact that it is Zen Buddhist tradition which is different from Tidawada Buddhism, So we can start with that. But also, you know, the topic and the purpose of our podcast is well being, you know, which is related to spirituality, So we can start from those.
Speaker 1:But you always ground us so well. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the spirituality part, you know, is that I mean, i have very limited, again, understanding of AI. But but as far as what I know about chat, GPT and that thing called natural language processing, which is what AI is about, that you know I'm also an interpreter. As an interpreter professionally, i'm not supposed to translate word by word but to carry the spirit behind the word. So like the thing about natural process language thing, my understanding is that when we use word and interact with the AI, they're not reading the words but they are able to catch the intent behind the words. So like that kind of intersect with spirituality. You know, because spirituality I guess the word spirit is comes from the meaning of the essence, the true nature of things, you know. So it's interesting that there is an overlap. But the monk's concern is more about where is it going to take us, you know. So not that something's wrong with AI.
Speaker 1:I want to make sure I heard that lens, that I heard that correctly, that from your perspective, that AI captures the intent, similarly how you do as a language interpreter. So that could be a definition of spirituality, the spirit behind the word. I got EBGBs. Do you hold true to that definition of spirituality when you put it in the context of AI? and what you do as an interpreter is not just carbon copy take the English conversation and, as closely as possible, translate it to Burmese, but you take the spirit behind what you feel that they are saying and translate it to them. Do you feel that a computer can do that just like you can, or as humanistic as you can? or go there before I babble.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a very complex issue. Complex topic.
Speaker 1:I don't think we would get here this quick, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's a lot of things going on. First is the intuition part. The thing about AI too is that, to answer your question, it is yet to be revealed, i don't know, because there's that concept of machine learning.
Speaker 2:So when I interact with chat GBT, the reason and the source of figuring out how to get the intent is from crunching all these data and becoming the solution by looking at the patterns For us, for our brains, for our evolution. It goes all the way back, way before internet. So when I translate, it's not like me gathering information and reading all these Burmese books on the internet and analyzing data and then translating, but it goes to something spiritual, like my ancestors, my culture, some nuances, some cultural differences. So for me it works the best when I don't think. But then ironically and the contrast is that computers are all about thinking, to compute, as to think, to calculate. So for me that's where It gets really confusing and interesting, because we get our intuition when we don't think, you know it comes out, but then from computer. They rely solely on the analysis and computing and thinking and calculating. So that's the contract. I hope that's helpful And I hope that's a good, solid ground to stand on and unpack.
Speaker 1:What do you think, a different definition of spirituality. I, in my notes, i wrote down okay, how do I give the audience a potential definition of spirituality, even though spirituality is deeply personal and profound and maybe as subjective as any other word in this language, next to love, right? But yeah, when we talk about spirituality, you know some things that I wrote down. It's, it's a source of solace, its guidance, it's can be used for growth for individuals across all kinds of cultures throughout history. It, like spirituality, encompasses an unbelievable wide range of beliefs and practices and insights. And you know, one of my favorite analogies for spirituality is what's the difference between spirituality and religion?
Speaker 1:I often use the analogy that religion is the glass, is the cup. Religion is the structural, pragmatic, um, patternistic things that people go. I like the glass or the religion to be clear or glass or plastic, and a lot of people like certain religions to hold the spirituality And I like to call the spirituality the liquid or the water that. Yes, you can use religions for spirituality, but spirituality there's just as many descriptors for that liquid and spirituality as there is for religions. But yeah, in terms of how are we going from artificial intelligence to artificial spirituality, or how do we hold? how does this AI hold this spirituality in an artificial way? How do we even begin to define it? You know where we already this is where we're at already More questions than answers, yeah, and then another effective way or another productive way that we can tackle this is through human condition.
Speaker 2:You know, because that's what Buddhism is about The human is suffering. So, like I think the article what is saying and what the mission of that monk the way I have interpreted it is to have that empathy. You know, because if machines are heartless, you know they can do whatever they want, but, like, if there is a sense of connection, you know you can do whatever you want. If machines are heartless, you know they can do whatever they want, but like, if there is a sense of connection, empathy, compassion, you know feeling the pain, feeling understood. If that's the case, it can take us further, beyond. You know our imagination in terms of infusing spirituality with artificial intelligence, you know. So that's the intent that I get, so maybe we can.
Speaker 1:And part of his message to these people that are creating this artificial intelligence, using these algorithms to create this artificial intelligence and all the things that come with it. It sounds like this monk is trying to make sure that these creators are putting the Buddhist principles in this artificial intelligence And that was one of the takeaways for me that in whenever there's this huge change in history, whether it's, you know, all of a sudden, you know farmers were worried when there was machinery that were fearful to take care, take away their job, and then you know we've seen what just the advancements we've had, and now we've got artificial intelligence and people are fearful of how it's going to affect you know it is going to change and take a lot of jobs away.
Speaker 2:That's just true. And that's a fear factor.
Speaker 1:But with that fear is the possibility of unbelievable growth, and his message is because it can do so much, and the fear is it could control us. If it's got these Buddhist principles and this algorithm, then okay, it can do much better than rapid advancement at the speed of light.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very intriguing.
Speaker 1:Well, it's. Yeah, we've touched upon it a little bit, but let's just kind of run down how AI is already being used is being used in health care. It's being employed to help with medical diagnostics, drug discovery, personalized medicine, patient monitoring, early detection and treatment outcomes. It's being used in finances in terms of algorithms to analyze financial data, fraud detection. Transportation We talked about this already with cars and predictive maintenance of vehicles. Personal assistance I have a hey Google in my house. Hey Google, what's the temperature, what's the music? And then so yeah, it's being used. It turned on the lights and a lot of ways already. So, to think of it, with the spirituality, this is just a whole another level of oh. What does that mean? So what do you see as the challenges when it comes to AI, when we bring in the spiritual aspect of it? So let's get deeper into that, regardless of what this gentleman thinks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean if I stay true to the path of Buddhism. So if it's AI that's going to help me end suffering, then that's great. But if it's going to prolong the suffering, it's going to bring me deeper into this reality of suffering and get stuck there, then it's not in harmony with the purpose of Buddhism. But not everybody's goal is to end suffering, you know.
Speaker 1:And I think where my mind goes with that, my version, my therapist version of that, it can be good, it can be bad. There's ethical and social implications that if it raises ethical concerns and biases, then that's problematic. But if it can help set up the conditions for spiritual growth just like a therapist can, well, great, i'm all for it. So I see this ethical considerations and you're seeing it as well. Yeah, i could set up the conditions for spiritual growth. Good, what about? I think of dependence and reliability when it comes to spirituality. Can you imagine if we become dependent on this for spiritual growth? What does that look like? To me, that sounds like suffering. But When you think of someone potentially being dependent on artificial intelligence to tap into that higher sense of self or higher power or spirituality, what do you think of?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's some. Yeah, not only attachment, but also not only dependence, but also attachment. You know, okay. So, but if it's like a temporary dependence, because that's also the role of the teacher, the role of the Dharma or the role of a raft, its purpose is to cross the river. Once you get to the other river, you can just move on. So if the artificial intelligence versus spirituality is like that, that's probably good. It will aid you to get to where you need to go, but then once you get there, there's no need for that anymore. You know. So, like that kind of augmented intelligence would be more productive and practical than artificial intelligence. You know something that can augment us to get to where we want to go, and then we can move on.
Speaker 1:You've always said that, as a meditation and Tidabata Buddhist life coach, that you never want your clients to be dependent on you for meditation or your life coaching Same thing as therapists. Now someone might say well, what's the harm in being dependent on this artificial intelligence if I'm reaching and receiving and connecting the spirituality that's helping me with growth and development and helping me with coping skill, being able to cope in a healthier way? What would you say to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're nearly on a really important point about this topic because, like, when I connect, so the thing about human intelligence and artificial intelligence is that the reason, sort of, whenever I connect to another human being, there's a human connection And the reason why is that I see myself in that person.
Speaker 2:You know that for me is a true liberation, true spirituality. But is that possible with an AI? you know? So, like, if it's going to aid me to see my? because you know, if the AI's role is for me to get to places, get things done, that's great. But from the point of view of spirituality, it needs to point me towards myself, to be able to look at within myself. You know, because only then I can be like, okay, this is what I want and this is what's true to me. So, like, for me that's very important. You know that's also what happens when you meditate, when you connect, when you are in service, helping others, you find yourself. You know that to me is a true spirituality. But if it's just like taking you away and then use this AI as a distraction not to look at yourself, not to look at yourself, then we're kind of missing the point.
Speaker 1:So the way I hear that is there's a difference between personal insight and awareness and escape. Because I can use connection right, i mean there's virtual reality where I'm walking and taking hikes in the woods and some people's definition of spirituality is connecting with nature. When does the healthy become toxic? When does the healthy become escape? When does the healthy become a maladaptive pattern and avoidance? of what I'm hearing you say is that internal awareness and growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a big one.
Speaker 1:That's a big one, and I think that can be hard, and especially with this artificial intelligence and this virtual reality that we might see people use for an altered nature connection, a virtual reality version of creative expression and engagement, where we can get lost in a world that isn't reality. Sounds like drugs a little bit, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's got a similar ring to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think we're touching on really key topics You as a therapist, me as a coach. as well as that, we do our best when we connect. So if there's an artificial intelligence trying to help me, but then I'm feeling understood, but then like, do you really understand me? Have you gone through what I've gone through? Do you have human experience? Then that's kind of questionable. So for me that's a puzzling and more to be revealed part, because, yeah, it's yet to be concluded, because we don't have enough data.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about some of those artificial spirituality examples that do exist. Virtual meditation apps They use AI algorithms to provide guided meditation sessions, personalized meditations, real-time feedback based on individual preferences and goals and, like this is the right guided meditation for me right now? Sounds to be very valuable. There are chatbot spiritual guides. Never thought I'd see that before.
Speaker 1:Chatbot spiritual guides That's certainly not a guru, right? AI powered chat bots or virtual assistants are designed to simulate spiritual guidance and support. Sounds like chat bot therapy and that might be a whole nother episode that we'll do with AI and therapy because it's out there. There's pros and cons to it. Yeah, these chat bot spiritual guides can provide advice answers. You ask them spiritual questions. It'll give you spiritual answers back. It'll engage in conversation about spirituality. That is a way to connect.
Speaker 1:Digital prayer platforms, ai generated spiritual teaching. So it's just another. I'll call it an advancement. It's an advancement. There's AI powered TAO or TERO or Oracle card readings. There's virtual religious rituals, emotional support, ai companion. So it goes on and on, and on and on. So these are some of the examples that we're referring to when we use the verbiage of artificial spirituality. Where do we go from here? Zal, i think we're not for or against. We're certainly highlighting some things to be conscious of, that sometimes, as humans, we can go to extremes, and you were relating it to as attachment or connection, or I'm using the words of toxic or dependency or a form of addiction. Where do you want to go from here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean I feel optimistic about it, or more so. I feel realistic about this because, in a nutshell, i think it will be a good challenge for humanity. Because the challenge for me, as I mentioned earlier maybe this is too much of a simplification is that is it going to help me see the truth or is it going to make me deviate from truth? So, like, if I'm interacting with a chat bot, spiritual guide or whatever, if it's distracting me from seeing myself, then it's not helping me.
Speaker 2:But essentially this is also what I do as a life coach as well is that before I help somebody effectively, i need to find out what they want. So everything is all personal and unique. So, if there is an artificial intelligence, spiritual guide, what am I actually looking for? Or if I don't know what I'm looking for, is this guy is going to help me to realize what I'm looking for, as opposed to being lured into a plan that I am not aware of? So it's all about going within. If it's going to help me to go within and find my truth, great, but if not, i'm stuck in this samsara, in this cycle of suffering.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I've gotten from you over your teachings of meditation practice. you've often been not so monastic and structural that say no guided meditations, but you are really big on meditations that don't involve music or guidance. Why And certainly not artificial intelligence if you're often a support of sitting in silence when it comes to meditation, Why do you see that as a very strong benefit in your practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm not against that, but I'm just cautious about where it can take us, because mine is a very tender, personal, friendly thing. but it can also be programmed. So if I'm following guidance and if I'm reacting or following it can sometimes take me away, because there are also some really good meditations where the guidance is actually to help you look within. a lot of long pauses, those are great. but if it's like a hypnosis that takes you to create stories, fantasy, making the purpose to be just to calm you if that's your goal, great. But that's not where the true liberation is. Otherwise you're just finding the temporary comfort. Oh, this music is soothing, so I feel great. Let me go out and live in the world and then I'll aspire and then come back. I'm supposed to having a really solid, self-reliant, true internal support that is faithful to you anytime, which I think in my experience is only found through silence and stillness. So that's why that's where I stand with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm certainly an advocate for meeting people where they're at when it comes to therapy or meditation or their health journey and wellness journey, whatever that might be, and having these AI, artificial intelligence and virtual realities and augmented realities I think we're going to be hearing it more called coining it, augmented realities or put a nice twist to it intentionally to help people begin that process. I mean, meditating for five minutes a day can seem like just impossible for a lot of us, me included. Sometimes going to the gym three times a week eating healthy can be seems so difficult and resistance and challenging that there can be unbelievable benefit to things like VR and augmented reality and AI to help people do that. But I'm also someone that is very conscious of people that become so dependent on just one thing where it prevents them from strengthening all aspects of a holistic health and wellness journey. So it can heighten these senses, it can activate the insight and intrigue, but I don't think I would have been one that would have. I'm sure I would do most of my meditation with a guided audio track if it wasn't for you And because you walked me through doing some meditations without the apps that it activated something in my practice that I probably wouldn't have gotten.
Speaker 1:So that's another feather in the cap for not just relying on I mean just sounds horrible artificial spirituality. It's like I work with a lot of clients that have substance use and I often relate to the clients that have these highs with a mind-altering, mood-altering chemical and substance as a numbing high. Yeah, you're getting high, but it's the most numbing high that you will ever feel in sobriety or recovery, when they're no longer numbing out these substances, achieving a goal, making a deadline, knocking checkmarks off their lists, and they get this feeling of accomplishments and something they work for as a higher high that they ever feel than just numbing out with drugs and alcohol, even though they have a sense of euphoria, guessing, as people continue their practice and spirituality, that they won't have to augment it with an artificial intelligence to make these higher senses of spirituality. And I think the thing that's important to connect with that is that knowing your inner self, part of that spirituality, that that higher power is within.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as you were talking, i thought it just comes to mind about, like, what makes us to be bonded is also what is going to set us free. What I mean by that is that there is this concept of anatta in Buddhism, which is translated as the absence of self. So we are suffering because we have this attachment to who I think I am, who I am, which is valid, which is true, but then that's also what is limiting me. But then, if I connect that with AI, it's kind of interesting, right, like machine don't have a mind, machine don't have identity, but we are creating identity And that's how they're going to relate to us. So like we're starting at two different, because we already have an identity, but we're creating identity for them. So, in a way, they're at an advantage point because they already have anatta, they know there's no self.
Speaker 2:But for me, that's, for us, that's what's going to set us free to realize that that there's an absence of self. And that's also why I feel optimistic and realistic about it is that the concept of Dharma in Buddhism, which is the truth, is that it doesn't matter where you go to Mars or different universe like there is this inutible truth which will never contradict itself. It will always be there. So if that's really the case, it will show up in AI too. You know, because there is no. There is no need for a creation, there is no need for an invention, there is no need for regulation. You know, if it's a true truth, it's going to appear. So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:We have one Buddhist perspective that is optimistic about the whole thing And we have this other Buddhist from Vermont who feels that, on this pace, that humanity has exponentially destroyed life on the same curve as we have exponentially increased intelligence, and that AI might soon destroy us. It's a little bit different from your perspective, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i don't have any. Yeah, i don't know much about Zen, buddhism and I don't know about this monk, but my first reaction to that is that that fear is coming from attachment. Right To be worried about something like that, which I don't yeah, i don't want that to be a criticism, but that doesn't really sound like a Buddhist thought for me, that I should actually be free of worry. I shouldn't create any kind of anxiety, you know? oh, i'm so anyway. So that's the thought that comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think we could go too much farther than that, do we?
Speaker 1:That's yeah, we've covered it Well in our exploration of artificial spirituality what a name that is and examples of AI applications in the realm of spirituality, it becomes evident that, while these technologies can simulate certain aspects of spiritual practices and guidance, they can never fully replicate the authenticity and depth of genuine spirituality. True spirituality is a deeply personal and meaningful experience that transcends algorithms and computational processes. It encompasses the complex interplay of emotions and tuition and the human connection to something greater than ourselves. It involves profound moments of self-discovery, transformation and a quest for meaning and purpose in life For some people. At its core, spirituality is about the exploration of our inner selves, our relationships with others and our connection to the universe. It goes beyond logical analysis and measurable data, delving into the realms of mystery, faith and transcendence. It is an experiential journey that cannot be quantified or fully understood by machines That.
Speaker 1:I believe AI might be able to mimic certain aspects of spirituality, providing guidance rituals or even generating spiritual writings. However, it lacks the capacity for genuine consciousness so far, empathy so far and tuition that are essential to the human spiritual experience. It cannot fully comprehend the depth of human emotions, the complexity of our desires and fears, or the profound moments of spiritual awakening and transcendence That you just have to feel. Moreover, spirituality is intrinsically tied to human relationships and community. It thrives on the shared experiences, wisdom and support that we find in spiritual communities and traditions. While AI can simulate interactions and provide information, it cannot replace the power of human connection, compassion and the collective wisdom passed through from generation to generation. As we navigate the advancements of AI, it is potential applications in various aspects of our lives, including spirituality. It is crucial to remember that the essence of spiritual lies and our authentic human experiences. It is deeply personal and subjective journey that cannot be replicated or replaced by machines. There you have, it Sounds good That summarizes it all.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to look back at this in 10 years probably five years, or even two years at the rate, of artificial intelligence. I'll probably read an article or two about this when it comes to specifically therapy and artificial intelligence. but there is certainly a spiritual connection that we make with another human being, but we certainly do find ways to connect with computers and electronics too. So nothing might take away all good or all bad. That's a big takeaway for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this provokes for me an attitude of curiosity. I'm just curious, not worry, not concerned, not anxious, but curious. It's very puzzling.
Speaker 1:Embracing the mystery. huh Yeah, and the change. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Can't wait to. This will be on YouTube and all the podcast platforms that you're listening to now, but please check out our Facebook page and our other social media links in the notes below. And, once again, please like, comment, share. It would mean a lot, too. if you've listened to the at least three episodes, leave a comment like. That's our handshake agreement if you found this valuable. My name is Luke DeBoy. This is Zah. We'll see you next time. Thanks so much. Thank you.