A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
The Wisdom of Discomfort: Navigating Mindful Resilience & Dukkha
Together, we peel back the layers of misconception that obscure the true nature of suffering, delving into the Buddhist concept of 'dukkha'—a term that signifies the complex interplay of internal and external forces in our lives. Our conversation may shift your perspective on suffering, transforming it from a mere obstacle to a catalyst for mindfulness and wise decision-making.
This episode is a journey through the heart of personal growth and self-compassion, where we distinguish between the necessary pains that foster development and the harmful ones that we must learn to avoid. Zaw's insights guide us through the intricacies of life and the process of embracing discomfort as a sign of progress. Discover how different therapy modalities like acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) can help you navigate physical and emotional pain with grace, committing to a life aligned with your deepest values. Tune in for an enriching experience that offers not just understanding, but a roadmap for resilience in the face of life's challenges.
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Music. Hey everybody, and welcome back to A Therapist of Buddhist In you. Way back in Episode 8, we explored the controversial reality of the first noble truth, shedding light on why suffering is necessary for growth and transformation. Today, we're diving even deeper into the heart of this topic as we unravel the complexities of understanding suffering. Suffering, or dukkha, is a fundamental human experience that uniquely touches us, but how do we genuinely understand suffering? Is there a right or wrong way to approach it? These are the questions we'll be exploring today. Join us as we navigate the labyrinth of human experience, uncovering the nuances of suffering and its significance in our lives.
Speaker 1:Whether you see clarity, wisdom or a deeper understanding of the human condition, this episode is crafted with you in mind and, hey, if you're finding value in our conversations, remember to hit that like button, subscribe to our channel and share it with others who might benefit. We can collectively do what we can't do alone. We are here today because of the recovery collective of a true holistic and integrative office in Annapolis, maryland, and if you want some individual time with myself and Zoll, you can catch us there too, professionally. Now, zoll, before we dive into insights rooted in this monastic and sutta understanding that you can very well articulate, of this first noble truth. Let's first explore some of these misconceptions or common misunderstandings about the nature of suffering. So let's start there, shall we?
Speaker 2:Sounds good.
Speaker 1:So your perspective as a Buddhist practitioner? One misconception that we often see when it comes to the truce of suffering is that suffering is solely caused by external circumstances. Tell me more, will you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, before anything, it is quite a topic and I think I said the same thing when we did the episode on this one first time about the noble truths aria. This aria is like the noble ones. These are the truths to be realized by the noble ones. It's quite a task. But I also wanted to mention that Buddhism, in my experience, or just Buddhism in general, is not theoretical, it's practical, experiential. So these truths are not to be like lecture or to be explained, but to be like explore and to be experienced. So I will be approaching from that point of view.
Speaker 2:I do have a little bit of background with monastic training back in Burma, but what I will be sharing will be coming mostly from my own practice and also my own experience. Just wanted to begin with that on the topic of doka. But also I have a little bit of experience. I'm always going to be a student, so I keep learning about things and I also treat Buddhism as philosophy as well. Things are very logical cause-effect. There will be a little bit of element of that too. But yeah, going back to that first question of misconception that doka is all external, I don't think it is a complete misconception, but it is. Something is missing when we make a statement like that. So I would say it is both external and internal. When there is suffering and the word is doka, the noble truth of suffering and the way they analyze or the meaning of the word, the way they break down. Doka means like something that is difficult and ka is like to endure. So difficult to endure is also another translation of it.
Speaker 1:Well, when we look at it that way, I think external circumstances can sometimes be difficult to endure. I think these external factors can contribute to suffering and I think our suffering stems from a lot of our internal reactions and interpretations of our life circumstances or external things that happen to us Anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's not solely caused by it. I think I'm really good at justifying my frustration towards the external factors that contribute to my suffering or pain. I know we had a whole episode on suffering, but that word itself can have a negative connotation, so just judge upon that before we continue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of want to relate this with mindfulness too is that the first truth creates some kind of alertness and urgency and, in a way that you know, if we think about doka as a way of things being impermanent, things being very difficult to endure, it creates the motivation and the urgency to be mindful and to be wise about decisions that I'm making. Throughout the day, there is suffering. That means that things are always changing you know, so like that's the right understanding.
Speaker 2:And also not right understanding is that taking what is unstable to be stable. So if I'm seeing a river, if it's flowing, if it's very smooth, I will notice it, but if I drop a flower into the river, I realize that it just got taken away. So as soon as I see that, I will be more careful that whatever is there is disappearing in the moment. So for me that creates an urgency and the motivation to practice the practices of mindfulness. Whatever I'm thinking about right now is either going to contribute to more suffering or less suffering, or no more suffering. For me that's a good daily practice, that whenever I'm feeling anger, it just doesn't come out of nowhere, it's as a result of something that's already built up. So my job is to be aware of it before it gets to that point.
Speaker 1:Do you think anger always leads to more suffering or no suffering? What do you think about that? Because, as a therapist, our thoughts, beliefs, emotions all can contribute to our experience, obviously. So by understanding and addressing some of our internal reactions or feelings, it can impact our feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it does lead to more suffering. I'm thinking of, like a real life example, not really an anger, more of a frustration. You know, when I'm with my kids, for example, by myself, when I get frustrated it comes from something else prior to that. It doesn't come out of nowhere. So, yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:I think anger can be a form of pain, which can be a form of suffering. So feeling anger can certainly contribute to more discomfort or suffering, whether it's philosophical or your Buddhist perspective. When is there a benefit to that type of suffering, anger?
Speaker 2:Is there a benefit to the suffering of anger?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I asked when is there? But depends on how you look at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anger is about not wanting. Right, when I'm angry, it's about not wanting. I don't want this situation, I don't like this. No, no, no. And yeah, there is less calmness, there is anger. Yeah, I guess maybe we can kind of look deeper into the understanding part. So I think anger is a good example. In Buddhist philosophy, any kind of negative feelings comes from three roots, like tree roots. Those roots are hatred, greed and delusion.
Speaker 1:So when those three things I can relate to all three Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like when I'm angry or if somebody is in anger, there is a sense of delusion, like not seeing things clearly. So it's more important to calm down first before understanding. So for me that would be the right mindfulness in that moment to let go of the anger first. I cannot look at it.
Speaker 1:So Because it's a heightened state, it can distort other thoughts. Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm following.
Speaker 2:But then the understanding part might not come right away in that moment, but only after calming down. I can reflect or try to be more present next time that there is always cause and effect. There is a cause for that anger. So the right understanding would be Do have a better understanding of. Maybe practically speaking, for me it can be a better planning, or like meals or spending the energy going out somewhere, like those decisions could have been made. So it prepares me for a better time next time. So I think that kind of is a benefit in terms of I don't want to feel this anger again, I don't want to feel this frustration again. It motivates me to have a better understanding of how it all happened, which also creates room for less anger or more calm next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, and I think we can just look at anger, how we touched upon, how our thoughts, our beliefs, our attitudes and our emotions towards anger can all contribute to our experience of suffering, like you're saying of the three roots. But by understanding and addressing our internal reactions we can often mitigate that impact. We were talking about the external stressors that impact our anger or whatever form of suffering we're feeling. To me, you're explaining a way to cultivate a greater resilience to face adversity and anger and emotions. That's what I'm hearing. So I really tried to keep it simple with misunderstandings and misconceptions, and we went deep already. Let's go to the next one.
Speaker 2:Okay, what's the next one?
Speaker 1:Another misconception suffering is permanent and unchangeable.
Speaker 2:That's a good one, because that really is contradictory to the true nature of suffering, that the true nature of suffering is that things are impermanent. That's also what creates the suffering. So it is wrong, or it is a misconception, to think that it's going to be like this forever. I'm in pain and I'm going to be in pain forever, for the rest of my life or even more pain.
Speaker 1:If you feel, whether it's psychological, even physical pain especially psychological and emotional pain is permanent and unchangeable, please go to therapy. Please go see Zolf or Buddhist-inspired life coaching or meditation coaching, because that is bleak to believe and feel that psychological and emotional pain is permanent and unchangeable. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Oh, that's part of the reason why we do the work that we do as therapists and a Buddhist inspired coaching that you do that. This too shall pass. I'm having a wonderful day. It's great to have. This too shall pass. I'm having a horrible day. This too shall pass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that speaks so well with the Dukka concept, because not seeing the truth is the Dukka, is the suffering.
Speaker 1:Say that again. Not seeing the truth is the suffering Interesting. I like that.
Speaker 2:So I'm doing things that I think will make me happy, and that is suffering because it's not true. So, like dismantling that, dispelling that it really is the freedom. Yeah, in a way like this, this is a really good segue, kind of misconception, because the four noble truths, it cannot be separated, you know, they're all interdependent. It's also very empowering in a way that, because the fourth one ends with responsibility, like cultivating, you know, finding the path, they're all linked together as cause and effect too, because the second truth is the root, the cause of the suffering, and then the third truth is, like, the possibility of the cessation of the suffering, and then the fourth is the path, you know, the cultivation of the path. So, like, when we see this kind of suffering, it's actually empowering in a way that what do I do to see the truth?
Speaker 1:My therapist's mind right the right tools and support. Suffering is transient. Suffering is subject to change. That if we navigate and find ways to alleviate their suffering over time. And the fourth one is what's the action to take? Yeah, but yeah, please, please, please, please, don't sit on that suffering by yourself. Another misconception you ready. Suffering should be avoided at all cost.
Speaker 2:That's not the reality is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know how you came up with these misconceptions. These are really good touch points, especially this one, because it's very yeah, we can talk about it, but like I think it will be good to it might sound very subtle, but it's also important like there's a sense of intuition that I'm going to avoid danger, you know. So the suffering that we're talking about is different. So, like, if I'm going to be in a place where there's going to be fire, you know that is suffering and I need to avoid that. That's not the suffering that we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Common sense should not be avoided at all cost okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or if I'm in a relationship that is like causing me so much pain. You know that is to be endure, you know. So like that's where the right understanding and the you know, wisdom and seeing the clarity of the situation helps, so like it's not something to you know suffering, as in that I got to endure it and don't leave at all, you know. But it's more about creating room for taking the wise action for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, love is painful. No, love is not painful. Toxic relationships are unhealthy boundaries, unhealthy coping skills, miscommunication all that can be painful, but love is not painful, yeah.
Speaker 2:But the subtle other truth which I like about this misconception, which is the point that you're making, or the implication, is that there are certain situations that I did not avoid, that was suffering, but helped me grow. So, like for those situations, if I would have avoided it out of fear, out of like I don't want to take a risk, I would have not grown up. You know that those are the things that actually help you grow.
Speaker 1:And I think you said this earlier not only avoiding it. It may prevent me from the lack of growth, but might create more suffering in the long run if we avoid some sum and context things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think slowly. Yeah, I like these misconceptions because it's slowly bringing to the, you know, mundane level, not the super, a super mundane when it comes to suffering, because we're also touching on like discomfort or pain or stress, like anything, because it's not pessimistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think of. It's not complete opposites, but the thought that comes to my mind with this one is self compassion. Treating ourselves with kindness and understanding during times of suffering is hard to do because I don't. I try to avoid discomfort, I try to avoid pain, psychological, emotional. So, having self compassion with the understanding that we're going through some form of dukkha Touch on that, oh yeah, self compassion piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that topic. The self compassion is that I guess in the 12 step programs or just what I've heard, is about feel the feelings, you know, so I can feel the misery without being miserable. To me, it's also self compassion that if I'm in a situation that makes me sad, of course I'll be sad. There's so much freedom in allowing myself to feel that, and that to me, is like a self conception. As opposed to that. Why am I feeling this way? I don't want to feel this, but then that's actually the opposite of being kind to myself, so like, of course you're sad because it's a sad situation, but then at the same time, it empowers you to realize that oh yeah, you know things happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I often have clients with unhealthy coping skills and they break through some of those, maybe to a level of denial or justification or rationalization, and they're really feeling it, and one way to look at it is lean into the discomfort. Well, another way to look at it is I get to help them, empower them to have some self compassion for a big paradigm shift, an arc, a behavior, a change in their life that is uncomfortable to do and having self compassion and not beating themselves up for man. I can't believe I'm doing this behavior or I've dealt with this thing in my life for so long. Having that self compassion is, to me, leaning into the discomfort and giving yourself that grace and that hyper awareness and realization to make those changes through that pain. Suffering To me in the therapist chair is like oh, they're making progress. The awareness and the feeling, the feelings and having the compassion and grace through that is kind of like the crux for a lot of people. But if you relate it to what we're talking about today, it's, like you said, a form of growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, compassion in Buddhist philosophy is also something that creates action right away, because the word is gharuna. That the compassion is a translation for that word, gharuna, which sometimes can be translated as like the quivering of the heart. When I'm compassionate, if I'm like not feeling it or if I don't want to do anything about it, it's me getting in the way. So true compassion creates like kind thoughts or actions. It creates the action. The action parts come. So like when I see somebody who's getting beaten, the compassion part would be to go help the person. But then if I feel the compassion and if I'm kind of avoiding it, that means you know it's not true compassion. You know, because one of the prayer or the setting intention for compassion practices may I learn to understand the suffering or, yeah, may I learn to care about suffering. There's an aspect of caring.
Speaker 1:It's a greater emotional resilience as a result. I think being with those that full range and spectrum of feelings, that's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, avoidance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a therapist I often do that kind of restructuring, identifying and challenging negative or unhelpful beliefs about suffering. Oh, I shouldn't be feeling this or challenging that belief system is we talked about it detrimental? So therapy can really help individuals reframe their thoughts and develop a more balanced and realistic perspective on the reality of what they're going through. All suffering. That's kind of what you're hitting on Great. Next, one Another misconception Suffering indicates personal weakness or failure.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:That's a cognitive restructure right there.
Speaker 2:Hmm, yeah, that somehow is related to the self-compassion piece that you're talking about that when I'm suffering, one of the good antidote for that is oh, this is a human feeling. Everybody else goes through this.
Speaker 1:Let's, let's the listeners absorb what you just said. Suffering is a universally human experience. Everyone goes through it. Now, marketing, social media, all these things may prevent signs of challenges or weaknesses or people always show their best foot forward and and show that. But every human being universally experiences suffering.
Speaker 2:Hmm, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing all these misconceptions that you're describing as very empowering. You know, especially this one too, is that if I truly believe that, that if I'm in a place where I feel the pain, I feel the weakness, you know, the shame, or like, oh yeah, I'm not good enough, all these things, but if I truly believe that other people goes through that too, that creates room for hope. You know, that means that if I'm seeing other people who are like doing really well, that means they've gone through what I'm going through and they made it through. You know, like there's that unity, some kind of uniting force, like when I have that human experience, as opposed to, oh, maybe I'm the only one who's feeling this, I'm not strong enough.
Speaker 1:Part of our human condition is not to be perfect. Part of our condition of being human is an opportunity to learn personal development, and often that is through discomfort. In my experience, pain is uh.
Speaker 2:Growth is uncomfortable. That's what I've heard of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, a lot of times a little majority, but certainly a lot of times it is yeah, and normalizing that, normalizing the normal, having the word, I think, in America, suffering I love the Buddhist approach to suffering, you know, and just working with you in this podcast, understanding it and not this, this super negative connotation type ways, is certainly helpful to me too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nothing is personal. It's not personal.
Speaker 1:So question for you, Zao.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How do we know when we understand true suffering? How do we know, talking about these misconceptions, these few points, but how do we know when we're truly understanding whatever, quote unquote true suffering is Maybe. That's a maybe that's a suffering, question that I just made up in my head. How are we going to know?
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question and somebody who can answer very clearly and confidently. Do that question is already on the path towards the end of the enlightenment because, because I think so you're there with me, I think, the use of the word.
Speaker 1:Mountain in the path.
Speaker 2:I think that the, the keyword that you're using in that question, is the true understanding. You know so, like the, the, the new truth, yeah, and then one of the factors of the AFO path is also right understanding, right view. So like when something is, when I see the truth, like that's already have created, that's already paved the path towards the, the end of suffering. You know so.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I, I, I don't want to dodge that question, but the joys and the journey, even when it's not so joyful. It's not where we're going, it's how we get there, and part of that is growth through challenges and discomfort and suffering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Maybe there there are different levels, but I think I do want to answer to that question in terms of like something welcoming and something hopeful, that understanding I think it's also related to wisdom in a way to it creates more freedom, more awareness. The example that I was thinking about was like fire, for example. When I don't have an understanding of fire, it's something to be afraid of, something that is destructive, but then when I understand fire, or when human being understand fire, we can hone the energy, use it to our benefit. Suffering can be like any situation that we don't understand, but when we gain understanding, we make a good use out of it.
Speaker 1:Alright, let's crank this up a notch. We're talking about psychological and emotional forms of suffering and how external factors have effect our life and suffering. What about something really physical Pain? How can this noble truth help us with something Like physical pain? There's a lot of people out there with chronic pain. As a Buddhist practitioner, what kind of things can you do to help them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a tough question because I have no personal experience with that, so I don't want to answer it in a way that is not relatable, you know, because I know there are people out there who are going through physical pain, either through old age or accident or whatever unfortunate circumstances there be. But what I can relate to is people talk a lot about when you're practicing meditation for a long time, pain physical pain is something to be observed as well. So there is a training for that. Again, this is like seeing things as they are Is it the true discomfort, true pain, or is it my mind creating it? So that would be a good clarifying or verification kind of question to when there is a physical pain, Is the pain really there? If the answer is yes, I can be kind to myself or I can take medication or go see a doctor as opposed to wait. Is this really the pain or am I just making a big deal out of it? So there is that self-assessment, self-honesty question.
Speaker 1:And there's some truth with that when it comes to therapy and chronic pain, where often people with chronic pain, they almost have like a traumatic expanse, so that fight flight psychologically in the thoughts, which can certainly enhance emotionally and behaviorally the sensation and all aspects of our self and enhance the suffering, one form of therapy called acceptance and commitment therapy, act. Now, mind you, pain is on a spectrum. It's very personal and this isn't true for everyone what Zal and I are saying, but for some people. I'll break down the ACT, the acceptance and commitment therapy, a little bit more. It really emphasizes, like Zal you're saying, acceptance of difficult thoughts and emotions while committing to actions aligned with one's values and really helping individuals develop psychological flexibility and resilience in the face of it. So what do I mean by that? The ACT in action could involve a person struggling with chronic pain. Instead of trying to suppress or avoid the pain, like we mentioned earlier, we often lead to increased distress and suffering.
Speaker 1:Act encourages a form of acceptance of the pain as, let's say, a natural part of life.
Speaker 1:Hey, we know there's this pain either in the forefront, in the back front of my mind. Well, there's got to be some acceptance with it and I can I guess I'm saying this word intentionally cripple us, or it can help us. Okay, how can we learn to be mindful and aware, using techniques to observe the pain without judgment, for example? Okay, how do I not become angry or fearful of this pain and recognize that it does not define my entire existence? And I can still learn how to manage and function in some ways with this pain. That's hard, that's going to take meditation techniques, that's going to take therapy for a lot of people and for a lot of people, other forms of pain management to do so. But this is showing us that, despite experiencing pain, the person may value spending quality time with their loved ones or pursuing meaningful work or engaging in hobbies and interests, and through acceptance and commitment therapy, they learn to commit to actions that align with these values, even in the presence of pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah that makes me a lot there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I follow and that makes me think about, like the mind in general, that thoughts are being created whether I allow it or not. So that concept of mindfulness as a gatekeeper is really a key that I'm in a lot of pain right now as a result. Thoughts are being created and then, based on that thought, I'm creating more thoughts. So mindfulness part is that wait, is this?
Speaker 2:It's not helping me you know, if it does, let me cultivate more of that. But if it doesn't discard that, think about something else. So like that to me is a good challenge about am I watering the bed seats or am I watering the good seats, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:I can't tell you how many people in the first three to six days of detox, when in the residential place and they could sweat and shake and bake in their bed, physically, emotionally, feel worse and worse than psychologically try to convince themselves, no, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be sick, I don't want to be in pain, and a lot of them accepted my nudge. To well, you can be sick and get worse in bed even though you're detoxing in your own some comfort meds. We can go to group and get outside of your head in a healthy way and it's amazing the power that that had, that they committed to taking into action and being around other people and different thoughts that weren't just their own, negative, intrusive, ridden with addiction and fear and lack of commitment to this process, is a form of act and into action. Yeah, now they suffered just a little bit less with the help of others and getting outside of them and seeing amen, I was there just five days ago hanging there. That's a form of acceptance and commitment.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Another question for you what do you think these listeners can do? All to employ and develop a deeper understanding of suffering and its role in personal growth or transformation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what you say, because it's completely related to meditation practice.
Speaker 2:That's what I like about Buddhism that the more I learn, or if I'm truly learning, it also creates more motivation for a consistent meditation practice, I think, for on a daily basis, the thing that to be mindful of I think we've touched on this in other aspects it's about how important today is, how precious today is, so like.
Speaker 2:Another aspect of suffering is that things are changing. This moment is irreplaceable, that it's not going to be created again. That's also that analogy of the river thing that when the river is flowing, each moment is passing by. So that, to me, is the first noble truth too, that things are impermanent, always changing, which creates the urgency to be more present in today, suffering not in like oh yeah, I have a headache, suffering as in I lost somebody, but as in that as soon as I wake up, I'm like oh, today is a series of moment, of leading moments like how do I make the best out of it? I think that's a good practical use of the first noble truth that I try to remember, and I think that's something to impart to the listeners too, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good, it's real good. We got anything else.
Speaker 2:We can definitely do another series on this topic. We cannot avoid Doka. We'll come back to it in any other way.
Speaker 1:Doka. I think I'm just gonna start walking around again. Ah, Doka, Doka.
Speaker 2:People do say that a lot like in Brahma. Yeah, okay, doka.
Speaker 1:Doka Makes perfect sense Serenity now. Well, as we conclude our exploration of the nature of suffering, we hope you've gained valuable insights from a Buddhist and therapist's perspectives. Remember, suffering is an inevitable part of the human experience, but how we relate to it can profoundly shape our lives. By cultivating mindfulness, compassion and acceptance, we can develop greater resilience and wisdom in the face of adversity. Embracing suffering as an opportunity for growth and transformation allows us to live more fully and authentically. Someone wise once said it is possible to live happily in the present moment. It is the only moment we have. So thank you for joining us on this journey and may you find peace and liberation amidst lives and inevitable challenges. And we'd appreciate it if you like and subscribe. My name is Luke and this is Zao. Have a good day and we'll see you next time. See you next time, take care.