A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
A Therapist, A Buddhist, and You
Illuminating the Journey of Self-Discovery and Mental Liberation
Zaw and I honor National Mental Health Awareness Month with truths that many of us keep hidden. We peel back the layers of stigma that often prevent those struggling with mental health from seeking the help they need. Through our open dialogue, we unravel the complexities of recognizing and treating mental health issues early, sharing staggering statistics and our own personal battles. We draw strength from our vulnerabilities, knowing our experiences could be the lantern in the dark for someone feeling isolated in their fight.
Navigating the murky waters of dual diagnosis, Zaw and I get candid about addiction's interplay with mental health, and how sobriety doesn't magically resolve underlying issues. Our discussion offers an intimate look at the gap between who we are and who we may appear to be when grappling with these challenges. We highlight the importance of therapy, community support, and accepting oneself, no matter where you are in your mental health journey. It's a reminder that every step towards understanding and self-care is a step towards resilience and healing.
The episode wraps with a hopeful focus on the transformative power of self-worth and the latest advancements in neuroscience that could change lives. We emphasize that happiness and peace are not just aspirations but that everyone has a right to. We share insights into proactive approaches to mental health, assuring listeners that regardless of the struggle, support and treatments are available. Our heartfelt conversation is more than just talk – it's a call to action to embrace your worth and to remember that your battle with mental health does not define you, nor does it have to be fought alone.
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Hey there, listeners. Today we're diving into something near and dear to our hearts. May is National Mental Health Awareness Month. It's a time to stop and reflect on the importance of mental well-being, not just for ourselves, but for everyone in our lives. In this episode, we're not shying away from the tough stuff. We're here to have an honest, raw conversation about mental health, including our mental health, the highs, the lows and everything in between, because, let's face it, life can be messy and our minds are no exception. But fear not, we're not just here to dwell on the challenges. We're also bringing you some powerful insights, practical tips and a whole lot of love and support. So if you're ready to dive deep, laugh a little and maybe feel a little, then stick around. This isn't just a podcast episode. It's a reminder that you're not alone, that your struggles are valid and that there's always hope on the horizon. Zal, my esteemed colleague, friend and my favorite practicing Buddhist.
Speaker 2:Hey.
Speaker 1:Luke Welcome Welcome. Thank you and as you might remember, zal and some of our listeners that we did a four-part series last September on National Recovery Month, which were episodes 34 through 37. And we want to at least devote one episode and most of you guys will be listening in May, and May is National Awareness Month for Mental Health.
Speaker 1:How does that sound? Sounds good, let's do it. So let's look at the significance and our collective listeners. Did you know that since its inception in 1949, Mental Health Awareness Month has been a cornerstone of addressing the challenges faced by millions of Americans living with mental health conditions? I like to call it a national movement. This is really dedicated to eradicating stigma, extending support, fostering public education and advocating for much-needed policies that prioritize the well-being of individuals and families affected by mental illness as opposed to stigmatizing them. How does that sound? Huh, Sounds good. Yeah, so I think I'm going to give you some staggering stats to really underline why it's important for us to focus on this topic today. 50% of all lifetime mental illnesses begin by age 14. And 75% of all mental illnesses begin by age 25. So it's not like a middle stage or late stage of life thing that half of us get these mental illness symptoms and experience these things at 14.
Speaker 1:Pretty young, yeah pretty young, trying to look at my teenage years. And it hasn't gotten easier for 14-year-olds, that's for sure. I'll give you another statistic the average delay between onset of mental illness symptoms and treatment 11 years. That's staggering to me, is all, what do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's alarming. It makes me think about mind and body. When you see a diagnosis in the body, it's accepted, there's treatment. Let's get it treated. When it comes to the mind, it's a different story.
Speaker 1:In some ways it's harder to identify whether it's from other people or ourselves. I mean 11 years from first set of symptoms. So mental illness, mental diagnosis we're talking depression, anxiety, bipolar schizophrenia, you name it that 11 years to be with these symptoms. Can you imagine, think about another illness with a different organ than the brain that if you're dealing with? Can you imagine having just a broken bone for 11 years and feeling the pain and affecting your movement and your everyday life and not getting treatment for it for 11 years? Suffering, suffering, suffering. One more statistic One in four US adults experience mental illness each year and only half of them receive treatment.
Speaker 1:So 25% of us experience some form of a mental illness each year.
Speaker 1:It's a lot, and some of us might not seek treatment if we have these symptoms for 11 total years.
Speaker 1:You know and I say that to empathize, but in some ways I can relate to it, and what I mean by that is I'm a mental health therapist, a certified addiction counselor, and one of the things that we've talked on this personally in this podcast before is finding a diagnosis for our two-year-old daughter and I even was seeking treatment.
Speaker 1:By that I mean I was with a therapist and even though I had a therapist through identifying this rare genetic condition for my daughter and there's certainly I knew I was going through grief and change and fear, but even with all that's all, I didn't realize how depressed I was and that's wild to think about. But it took, you know, eight months to a year later for me to look back and even though I was in therapy and I talked to you about it and close friends, that I didn't realize how depressed I was. So in some ways I can understand not even in a stigma way, but I can understand that it can be hard to even identify these mental illness symptoms or challenges that we have with our our brain and and our mental and emotional ability. I mean, I love it daily, I help people with it daily and talking to my wife was like wow oh, yeah, I think, uh, more, more reasons for the conversations and the dialogues to be available.
Speaker 2:I think that really is, uh, where the hope is. You know, because it's almost like a muscle memory or muscle, like a built-in muscle, that for me, a big part of learning to treat my mental health comes from the place of allowing, like creating space for me to feel what I'm feeling, because there's that knee-jerk reaction that, oh, I'm not supposed to be feeling this, you know. And it adds more Because I can think about my own mental health, which is a long journey, but I'm in a much better place compared to before. But it comes from that place of I should not be feeling this or wait. This feeling is wrong, you know, but when there is a space and the time, that's which is why I think therapy is really important. And then recovery community is very important, where you're able to verbalize where you're at without being shamed or without being judged. Other person like, yeah, me too, I know what you're feeling, you know there's strength in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you make a good point that, whether it's I shouldn't be feeling this or I'm just now realize, I'm feeling this is really nothing to be ashamed of. I'm feeling this is really nothing to be ashamed of. I mean, we might not see physical symptoms of cancer until it's spread all across our body. We might not be able to realize or listen to some of these symptoms that may be very subtle at first or close to nonexistent, or we look back in hindsight and go oh yeah, there are some signs there of other organ conditions, let alone the brain, right? So in some ways it is a medical problem, just like heart disease or diabetes.
Speaker 1:Mental illnesses are health conditions involving, like we're talking about, changes in in emotion, thinking or behavior, or a combination of those. It can be associated with distress or problems functioning in social settings, work or family activities. And then, to add to it I think you mentioned this it can commonly be accompanied by substance use commonly be accompanied by substance use. To add to it, why do you think substance use is often associated in the medical comorbidity or dual diagnosis with mental illness? Why is that so common? I don't have a statistic for that, but we know it's common.
Speaker 2:The dual diagnosis is very common.
Speaker 1:The substance use. Yeah, I mean it's the chicken or the egg is very common, the substance use.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's the chicken or the egg kind of situation in my story, but either way, both are present. But I think about it in terms of the easy way out. So if I'm feeling something and if I want to change it, drugs and alcohol gives that right away, especially if it's not commonly accepted. And if I'm not open to and if I'm not open to treatment, or if I'm like worried about certain things, like I'm not going to look for treatment but I'm going to look for my own treatment and that's because I have control over it, as opposed to going to a treatment center or like sharing about with somebody. So that's why, in my experience, that's why substance abuse was a real go-to and it also even added more to the actual symptom. So it's like feed off of each other very negatively and take it to the extreme.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if we look at this medically, if my pancreas is dysfunctioning and not making insulin, well, let's compare it to the brain. If my brain is not releasing a lot of serotonin or dopamine, which is feel good, I can self-medicate or pacify or change the way I'm feeling, maybe to the level of feel good or euphoria with drugs or alcohol. So for a lot of people, it is changing how I'm feeling, even to the level of feeling good. I think I have worked with or have worked with many clients over the years that abuse drugs and or alcohol addictively alcoholically addictively. But for a strong percentage of them, when their brain chemistry gets a little bit more balanced and changed all of a sudden, their obsession or their compulsion to self-medicate goes way down to maybe nothing and it's like oh man, I don't want this or need this. So that is true for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did not grow up in this country but I definitely fall under that. Statistics that you mentioned Maybe it was more than 11 years until it was probably treated, but it does make me think about why alcohol and drugs were the treatment. Statistics that you mentioned maybe it was more than 11 years until it was probably treated, but it does make me think about why alcohol and drugs were the treatment, but also at the same time, how adversely it affected the nature of the real symptom, because it promotes the isolation, the drug use. So that's why it makes the problem even more problematic. The more you use, you think you're going out and then you're socializing, but then your world becomes a lot more. My world became a lot more smaller, tiny little bit, and then it created more problems. So definitely they really affect each other very negatively. That's why there's also so much common. The dual diagnosis is very common.
Speaker 1:Can you give us a little bit more about whether it's your story with substances and how do you look back on whether it's your depression or intrusive thoughts and the mental illness part or challenges you've had with that? As opposed to addiction, how has that journey been? If you don't mind sharing?
Speaker 2:I can share, yeah, but, like I mean, it all comes down to not having any healthy coping skills.
Speaker 2:Because life is challenging, I think everybody does suffer from some kind of mental malady to a certain extent, but I think there is some kind of a genetic or chemical disposition for people like you know, addicts and alcoholics and mental health problem. But for me it was like a built up of some little problem and then dealing with dealing with that in an unhealthy way over and over again started creating more distance between my true self and my created wrong self. So for me that was like a setup for drugs and alcohol created wrong self. So for me that was like the setup for drugs and alcohol because that was my coping skill. I mean, for me to be more specific, I struggle a lot with like, uh yeah, self-image issue, like always afraid of things, not being confident, like there's always something limiting, and then drugs and alcohol was like a coping skill for that because it takes me out of it completely and I get to be real in my head, you know, but that that didn't lead me to a good place.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's good. One example I see I don't know if you called it like a underlying cause or condition or using substances as a solution to that less than or that self-image. And it's not uncommon for people to seek therapy or coaching after 5, 10, 15 years of sobriety because all of a sudden the substance use and the behaviors are gone. But some of the whether you call it a mental illness or just mental health can be some people's lowest points and you hear people say in the rooms all the time man, I had a bottom in sobriety, whether it's with depression or apathy or lack of motivation, or even for some people it's suicidal ideation and that is gone the substance use piece and the direct behaviors where substances is gone. But I I've certainly seen many people with 5, 10, 15, 20 years sober that go oh, I'm still struggling with something and I don't know what, and and that's in general mental health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a big part of for me. I think about solution, or think about like teachings, or like the most effective teaching or the most effective solution is a living solution. You know so, if I'm seeing an example of a mentally healthy person, I'm inspired by that. You know so, if I'm seeing an example of a mentally healthy person, I'm inspired by that. You know so, like that, I think that's really is like hopefully we'll get to that point in the future. But like there's a lot of emphasis on because body can be seen. So if I see somebody who's really fit, I feel inspired to eat healthy, stay fit.
Speaker 2:But then it's kind of different, like when I see somebody who's mentally healthy, in a way of like that person is so kind, I love being around that person, very compassionate. When that becomes like a good example, you feel more inspired to take care of your mind, because mind cannot be seen in a way, the body can be seen. So I feel like if there is more of the promotion or more awareness of that, how important it is to take care of the mind, because you can just sense it by some examples that will be more of like a strive for okay, I'm not feeling good. Let me ask help for that by 14 already.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the things that we will address is the reality is that that can be in flux, and what I mean by that is, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm doing all the right things and I should be mentally healthy or not struggling with my thoughts or my mood, but guess what? It can still happen, which can potentially create stigmas, and I don't want to focus on stigma, but I want to focus on acceptance and not just mental health awareness. I can be aware that I can set up the conditions for me to be healthy physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually and I'm not going to be perfect in always setting up the conditions for my mental health and physical health, and I'm not always 100%. I don't always give my 100% best, and I'm aware of that. So it's not the awareness that I necessarily struggle with. So it's not the awareness that I necessarily struggle with.
Speaker 1:It's sometimes the acceptance, because I can be aware and it doesn't call for action, and I think that's one of the things that I'm hearing. It's the attractive piece for me and, whether it's my recovery or my health journey or me being, I think, a parent of someone who has special needs, it's that there can be dips and I can be aware of it. But being aware doesn't always call for action and a change in behavior, of thinking, but taking the acceptance with an action, I think that's. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that even makes that example even more attracting right, I see somebody struggling and I also see somebody asking for help, you know, despite how great he was doing earlier, you know. So like that, I mean for me that really is the human nature and that person is being real when he does that. Otherwise it's just a poster child kind of situation. I'm just happy all the time. There's no difficulty in my life, as opposed to I was happy, but now I'm facing some difficulty and I'm asking for help and responding appropriately to the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of our messages that we wanted to get across today is how do we take care of yourself, take care of yourself, you know, and there are numerous ups and downs and some are solvable and sometimes they're not so much solvable. So, like when our mental health acts up, hopefully we seek support and treatment, like you're saying, and that's taking care of ourself and one of our common threads that's, I think, a common message that we share in this podcast and a collective solution to health and wellness is collectively, we can do together so much more than we can do individually. Yeah, I do a lot better when I get support to take care of myself, and that's one of our common threads that I think. When we talk, I go oh, this is one of the messages that I'm also getting from what we share today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. For me, community is a big part of taking care of myself, which sounds kind of paradoxical. I'm taking care of myself, which sounds kind of paradoxical. I'm taking care of myself by being involved in the community. But I used to write, I used to journal, write a lot, which really helped. But at the same time, in comparison, I think I wasn't a good witness to my own situation by myself.
Speaker 2:But, like when I'm staying connected with other people, it's like a memory that I've created because I'm, we're forgetful people. So the more I interact with people, the more identity that I'm creating for myself. So because what gets us going is the meaning and the purpose, because I went through lots of difficulty, lots of difficulties going on family situation, my country military coup, losing some friends. When that happened I was like why am I alive?
Speaker 2:And then that can create a really deep depression that wait, what am I doing here? I don't live in my country, I'm living here, my family's here, I have children. What do I do? But then when that happens, when you connect with the person, the people you've been staying in touch with, you get a reminder of wait, there's a purpose for my living. For me, that really is the key of taking care of myself, where, okay, my purpose is to show up, help others keep getting better. And then the good thing about recovery community is that, even if I cannot do anything, my purpose is to stay sober. That becomes like a really good building blocks for greater things.
Speaker 1:And sometimes we just suffer in silence. And part of another message and thanks for being transparent about that is how do we take care of our loved ones, how do we check on friends and family? And sometimes all people need is whether it's a shoulder to to physically or metaphorically cry on. But you know, if that's a huge chapter in your life of change and sadness and low mood and existential understanding understandable existentialism like what, why, what is this all about? And just being present with someone and checking in on loved ones is just huge for it. Treating mental, mental health really is, really is it's a one. I think that also feeds into talking about it. I can only imagine in that chapter in your life you felt isolated, but did you stay isolated with your own thoughts and emotions during that time?
Speaker 2:Not really. No, I have conditions set up that didn't allow me to stay isolated.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:People kept reaching out. I still have vocabularies for how I was feeling, you know, and, uh, there were routines, uh, meditation practice. Like you know, mood follows action is what I've learned from that experience. I just gotta keep doing it, even if I'm not feeling it. So it was very helpful. I did not feel isolated at all. Yeah, I mean, I'm very involved in the 12-step fellowship. So I learned a lot from that fellowship, which is universal principles, from my Buddhist background too. It's really about, yeah, like kind of keeping my selfishness at bay, and the best way to do that is to be helpful to others, you know. So for me, that really got me going, because the more I talked about it, the more I was relatable. Other people relate to it and I felt more human. You know, I felt more connected to other people by being real.
Speaker 1:So the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it, the less we aren't just aware of it, but we can lead to action and change. You know, if you go to a doctor and you're having some pain, what do they ask you every time? How's your pain? Your pain level is very subjective and personable, no one can deny that. But there's a reason why a doctor says well, what is your pain level? How intense is that emotion? Is that physical, mental, emotional feeling? We're doing it with this organ. What's going on? The more we talk about it, the more we normalize it and we can do something about it. We can be aware of it, accept it and lead to action and change. I think that's another thing that's really important. I do this for a living. So when people have a struggle with the organ of the brain which affects how we think, how we feel, how we act and react which is one of the reasons why there's a stigma and prejudice and discrimination, because it's not that you've got a pain in your body it can lead to thoughts and emotions and reactions which can affect other people and they don't like that, but people don't innately.
Speaker 1:There's no training manual to go okay. What kind of help do I need? How can I get help for this? Who do I trust? What are my next steps? Whether it's therapy, whether it's an inpatient and outpatient, whether it's medication, whether it's other treatment modalities, there's a lot of the next now. In the next 20 years, there's going to be a lot of different modalities physiological, chemical and machinery, even to help with mental illnesses. So I'm going to encourage people to explore different mental health treatments. You're not an expert, so explore.
Speaker 1:Google search five different therapy styles for depression or whatever you're going through, whether it's anxiety, whether it's panic, whether it's voices, whether it's grief of being married to someone that's a narcissist you name it. Google search five different treatments for it. Turn on a podcast. There's a lot of wonderful mental health therapy podcasts. We touch upon that here A therapist, a Buddhist and you. There's the Happiness Lab, the Mental Illness Happy Hour. There's a podcast called Terrible. Thanks for Asking. Therapy for black girls. Right, that's important to go. How do I relate to my issues, my depression, my anxiety, my cultural things that are affecting me? There's Therapy Chat by Laura Reagan, who's a wonderful local therapist, who's been doing it for years and she has a wonderful podcast and a lot of it's geared towards trauma. There's YouTube videos, just explore. We have so many options that we can begin to learn and begin to feel understood in some ways. Like I said, I didn't realize I was feeling depression. What is going on here? I process it with my therapist and my spouse. Oh boy.
Speaker 2:I was feeling depression.
Speaker 1:What is going on here?
Speaker 2:I process it with my therapist and my spouse and oh, oh boy. You know, yeah, I'm still stuck on that thing about the delay. You know from, yeah, that 11 years. Because in hindsight and I want this message across too that these are challenges but then also like kind of blessings in disguise too. You know, because I've heard so many success stories where almost like to the point of like the chosen ones, where you have these struggles, the earlier you treat it, it's almost like a superpower where you get to treat it and then get stronger on the other side, other side, and that you're not only an example but like can be useful to other people if it's treated.
Speaker 2:Because you know life is problematic. That's my buddhist belief, that's the first noble truth. But then what coping skill am I coming up with? Like real solid coping skill and once I use that, like all these challenges are dealt with and then they stay with you, the coping skills, and then they become even stronger over the years. You know, so like, if only I could treat everything that I was suffering at the age of 14 or earlier. The earlier it is treated, the better, or the earlier it is talked about, the better, because it gives you more strength Very paradoxical. You get strength by admitting your weakness in a way you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a collective solution to health and wellness, not just treating a symptom but potentially underlining causes and conditions. And what I mean by that is, yeah, a person is their thoughts, their emotions, their feelings, their brain chemistry, and the human is the most complex puzzle that I can think of, which is just phenomenal and scary and frightening and makes mental health that much more challenging. But because we know that, I think that's one of the reasons that we often see things from an Eastern philosophy as opposed to just a Western. Here's a problem, here's a symptom, get rid of this symptom but not really always see the underlining causes and conditions. And that's kind of the approach that we take on this podcast and that the guests we bring on from the still-ate ganglion block and the fight-or-flight response in people with trauma and being able to stop that response. People can often do better with their trauma response and their fight-or-flight response and changes the neural pathways of the brain. Cool episode, check it out on SGB for trauma. But that's part of what I hope moving forward, what really policies and procedures and what we understand the brain to be and I say a version of this a lot.
Speaker 1:When it comes to a health condition, the brain comes with the biggest stigma. If you look at any other organ, like we said, the pancreas stops producing insulin, people don't judge you and say you're broken. No, if your heart has to work harder and increases blood pressure and is the precursor to five blocked arteries in your heart and you need a quintuple bypass surgery, they're not going to say that you don't deserve the surgery. Now I would also like for us to empower and going okay, get the surgery, get the treatment, get the insulin, but let's also, whenever we begin to see these signs and symptoms, let's treat the whole person. And the stress, the environment, the nutrition, the physical, the mental, the emotional the whole part of the person can directly or indirectly affect someone's mental health and well-being.
Speaker 1:And sometimes, with some of my clients that are very anti-medication the physical, the things that they have control over with the thought stopping, and the emotional and coping strategies, and physical health and emotional health and they realize, man, there's still this chemical thing that I felt like I controlled the things that I could control and I'm still struggling with dark, intrusive thoughts or this depression that won't change.
Speaker 1:And then they decide to introduce a medication then, or micro dosing or things that are new in the past five, 10, 15 years and they go wow, I can finally X, my brain can finally exhale, or I don't have these dark, deep, intrusive thoughts, or I don't have this suicidal thoughts anymore, or, for the first time since I was a little girl, I feel good about my decisions and I feel like I can have a conversation. So it's looking at the whole of the person and sometimes it is the brain chemistry that they don't have enough serotonin or dopamine, or a trauma response has adversely affected, or a traumatic brain injury has adversely affected someone's ability to think, feel and act in a way that they used to and they need help with. There was a lot there, a little bit of a rant, but what do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope this podcast is helpful, because one thing that comes to mind in conclusion is, uh, pretty much the underlying thought that I want to cultivate which is always true, and that I want everybody else to cultivate is that, no matter who you are like, everybody is worthy of happiness. Everybody deserves, uh, a life of peace and happiness, you know, and it is possible. So, uh, but, like, that hope can make a huge difference because it's just an attitude. You know, life sucks, things are difficult, but I know I deserve to be happy. You know, as soon as I am able to switch my attitude to that, like, what I do throughout the day is completely different from like, oh, I'm just a victim, you know this, and that I'm just going to sit and not do anything, you know, as opposed to wait, I deserve to be happy. So what can I do?
Speaker 2:Go out, take a walk, make some coffee, talk to a friend, you know. Make some healthy food, read, you know, play some music, you know, whatever it is Like, you just start doing things because you believe that you are worthy of happiness and you start making things happen. So I really want to send a message across about the fact that, not only that you deserve to be happy, but, like that's the underlying innate nature for everybody, everybody's looking for that same thing.
Speaker 1:And you know, zal, I've had more than a handful of clients that brain chemistry that's off, or the rewiring the neural pathways, the physical, mental, emotional, spiritual peace and and all of a sudden they have that senseful it's like. And one individual I'm thinking of said is this what normal people feel all the time? This is and this is bullshit. If I felt this 30 of the time, I'd feel like I'd be a functioning member of society. I think one of my messages is I don't want anyone to have to suffer for that long moving forward. And there's still so much, unfortunately, we don't know about the brain and we're finding out. Now. We're in the infantile stage, but just now there's been some incredible findings with the brain and what can help change that chemistry in ways that serotonin and SSRIs weren't doing for some people and the physical things that we are very proponents of.
Speaker 1:That you do have the power to change these things for a large percentage of people in their mental health. And if you're losing hope, reach out to someone. There are other potential solutions. And I think part of the frustrating piece is and we see this with substance use we don't want to suffer, and the continuous suffering can be really challenging, so seek out for help. Seek out for help. We'll provide a lot of services and the episode notes, and I think this is why we have to highlight that we don't want anyone to suffer for 11 years before they seek treatment. And eventually, one thing that we didn't provide statistics for is how long does it take for these symptoms to go away? Well, you and I and the work that we do here at the Recovery Collective- we're very fortunate.
Speaker 1:I think part of it because of our philosophy is that we get to see people, a lot of their symptoms go dormant or go away and then they have a proactive approach for their whatever their version of recovery is and their mental health and their behavioral health is moving forward yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for bringing this topic up. We can probably revisit it again, because this is the main thing that we do. Yeah, mental health for me is happiness, meaning you know values in alignment with who I am. That's yeah, so I'm glad we did this episode. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you all for listening and, as we close today's episode, we want to extend our deepest gratitude to each and every one of you for joining us in this really important conversation about mental health. Remember your mental health matters and it's okay to seek support when you need it or when you want it. I encourage you to share this episode with your friends, family and community to help spread awareness and support for mental health. Together, we can break the barriers and create a world where everyone feels safe, supported, understood and help with our symptoms. If you or someone you know is struggling, please don't hesitate to reach out for help. There are resources available and you're not alone. Take care of yourselves and remember that there is always hope and help available. Thank you for listening and please share with others Until next time. My name is Luke and this is Zal. Take care, thank you.